Comment by sdrothrock | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sdrothrock | Hacker News Reader

I could have sworn that I wrote a comment, but it looks like I didn't post it.

I think there are at least two kinds of "content" -- one that stems from happiness and another that stems from depression.

The former is the good kind, the one we all assume the article is talking about.

The latter is a resounding "meh" followed by a "who cares."

I've seen a lot of the latter in people in their 20s and early 30s here. The world's going to shit, the society's going to shit, nobody has money, rent is expensive, nobody cares. Spend the money now and enjoy hanging out with friends -- screw retirement and the future because you can deal with it later, preferably with the pension system.

Who's going to get ahead at work? The old folks are all impressing their own power structure on the younger folks and making life miserable. Why bust your ass at work when you can just do your own thing with a bunch of jobs cobbled together?

So, basically, a lot of the "content" people I see around me around happy with their lot, they just don't think their lot's going to improve or worth working on.

This is from a point of view of 11 years in Japan, six years in Tokyo.

I don't know about Japan, but even in sunbaked places like LA, I can tell there's a ton of nihilism going on and spreading. Most of the money people make goes to rent, most jobs are BS and people know this deep down, the only way to "move up" these days is to move around frequently, and authority throws up a lot of roadblocks to discourage taking initiative. People act "content", but the majority don't feel particularly good about their situation. Our parents owned homes by my generation's age; very few of us own homes, and while we also don't have the same drive to keep up with the Joneses, there's still an undercurrent of resentment to the previous generation that tells us to "pound the pavement" without a clue as to how the new economy treats young people.

Ask people in their 20s and 30s what they think about the world, and over half of them will say the world's going to shit in one way or another. I know people on both sides of the political spectrum that will say that. This isn't a good sign for society.

Granted, I am not divorced from this phenomenon. There is a lot of things that my parents' generation did that I don't do because they seem pointless. I'm not in a relationship, hence not married, no kids, I don't intend on owning a house with a white picket fence(or any house), I don't have two cars, I don't go on vacation after vacation, I don't "pound the pavement", etc. All because I find these things to be "meh", having a low ROI in general.

> "Ask people in their 20s and 30s what they think about the world, and over half of them will say the world's going to shit in one way or another. I know people on both sides of the political spectrum that will say that. This isn't a good sign for society."

Do you know the song, "We didn't Start the Fire"? [1] Great song. It was released in 1989 - check out the lyrics. Even more interesting though is why the song was written. [2] Billy Joel was in a recording studio talking to a friend of John Lennon's son, who was 21 at the time. They had a conversation:

- Friend: It's a terrible time to be 21 [because the world's going to shit]

- Billy Joel: Yeah, I remember when I was 21 – I thought it was an awful time and we had Vietnam, and y'know, drug problems, and civil rights problems and everything seemed to be awful.

- Friend: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's different for you. You were a kid in the fifties and everybody knows that nothing happened in the fifties.

- Billy Joel: Wait a minute, didn't you hear of the Korean War or the Suez Canal Crisis?

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Didn%27t_Start_the_Fire#His...

Yeah but climate change. That wasn't really an issue in the 80s. Now we all have to face that fact every day. And don't tell me there's always going to be something. Climate change is different. Not even remotely like anything humanity has faced before.

> Yeah but climate change. That wasn't really an issue in the 80s.

The foundational assumption of the modern scientific era (circa 1845) is that steam engine physics are a fundamental law of the universe. This guiding constraint is referred to as the "Laws of Thermodynamics"...

Today's scientists have better numbers. Dark energy and dark matter are their realization that something is wrong with 1845's understanding of the laws of nature.

Absolute quality has probably gone up with increased efficiency for cheaper goods/tech.

However because scarce things are driven by pseudo auction dynamics that depends on wealth disparity rather than absolute cost young people quickly realize there is a ceiling.

Because they know they can't break that ceiling money may as well be spent on fun "now" things. Or hail Marys like Bitcoin. Because in many ways, scarce things are the only things of "true" value.

There is a parallel here to the disenfranchisement of the black community. You can live "comfortably" as long as you don't try to cross the moat. Energy that could've been spent improving quality for all is spent on digging the moat deeper.

I couldn't tell if you were talking about Japan, Europe, Canada, or the United States until your very last sentence, to be completely honest. I mean, yeah, the article is about Japanese youth and Japanese society, but I can draw a lot of parallels to my own life / acquaintances / colleagues / friends / family in the states.

I left Italy ten years ago, but I am still much in touch with the economy and the Counrty, and like you said, it could have been a way to describe Italy too, if not for the last sentence.

I haven't read the article yet, but this is why being "content" never seems that descriptive to me. It doesn't describe the situation in which one finds themselves, it's a statement on their reaction. Some people always fight, some people throw a fit like a child, etc. Some people are content.

It's essential to find a source of contentedness in life, but it can be easily manipulated to become complacency. Are these kids content about being content?

Are we ever really content? Even if we were to increase our own happiness, we would still live in a world where, outside our walls, the suffering persists. Could we really, perfectly be happy, knowing?

If the answer is no, then to be happy, we must pass through hell with the rest of them.

There are fleeting states of being content that do actually happen. It's up to each person in their own way to find out (or ignore) that those states are just a product of their imagination.

What matters, is what you do when you've passed through hell and seen it for what it is.

This is why humans succeed. We're just never content, there's always something to complain about, to improve. It's always been that way, and it's always been the case that the vast majority left it at complaining and the actual change or progress was initiated by a few individuals.

My look on this is that "meh" and "who cares" stem from inertia and apathy which can lead to depression caused by overwhelm, not the other way around.

You talk like inertia and apathy are a root cause, but to me they are symptoms.

To me it sounds like learned helplessness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness People (and animals) who perceive to be systematically unable to avoid or confront sources of stress eventually accept that they have no control over the situation and stop trying.

Except it happens at a nation's scale.

I do think the resulting apathy keeps the problem going. I wonder if apathy looks like the cause because the process starts in early childhood.

I find your statement true.

Per the article:

>describe themselves as content.

The trouble with the article is Japanese are notoriously not honest with their emotions.

The article notes that today's youth is more content than earlier generations, so the comparison pertinent to the headline of the article is through time within Japan.

Assuming culture, phrasing, language, etc remain constant.

I know today's Japanese youth and young adults are not very open or honest with their emotions, especially with respect to sharing negative feelings. How that compares to the past, I don't know. It could very well be the same, but take the article's claims with a grain of salt. I just know that I've personally met an unfortunate number of Japanese who are depressed and disaffected.

>Japanese are notoriously not honest with their emotions

Internet stereotypes aside, I'd love a source on that

I wouldn't just call it an internet stereotype. Have you tried investigating this yourself? It should not be hard to find articles, Youtubers, and bloggers discussing this. Or have you lived in Japan, or have many Japanese friends?

I don't know what "Internet stereotype" is supposed to imply, but you won't live in Japan long before some Japanese friend takes you aside and warns you about the phenomenon of tatemae vs. honne, a Japanese person's public expression of feelings vs his true, carefully hidden feelings. If you learn to read Japanese, you'll notice whole shelves in the big Japanese bookstores devoted to the analysis (mostly by Japanese authors) of differences between Japanese culture and others, such as why the tatemae/honne distinction, present in all cultures, is so extreme in Japan.

Decades ago, anthropologist Ruth Benedict discussed this issue (among others) in her book, "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword", which was held in high esteem by the Japanese post-war generation. You might start with that.

I appreciate the readings and will definitely check it out. I've noticed the fetishization of Japanese culture (positive and negative) on the Internet so I'm immediately suspicious of any broad generalizations I see of Japanese people.

@sdrothrock

I am not in Japan, but the East Coast of USA. I am 22, have no debts, own my car, make 65k and have close to 50k invested in the stock market. I save close to 60% of my income and actively invest it.

On paper, I should be great but I am struggling with this nihilistic attitude to life. I am in good shape, sleep well, drink only water, work on programming projects or other side businesses, play video games, read non-fiction and hang out with friends.

How do I snap out of it and find more meaning in life? I've felt this "content" depressed limbo state for the past 3 years.

My go to quote for how I feel in general is from Fight Club.

“We’re the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War’s a spiritual war… our Great Depression is our lives. We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won’t. And we’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off.”

― Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club

This description made me think of Mack and his gang in Cannery Row (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannery_Row_(novel)).

Not so much the tomfoolery but just the relative contentment with their lives, despite their lacks.

I could see this "meh" culture spreading to the west, with the skyrocketing costs of housing and iffy career prospects, depending on your particular geographic location the lifestyle that westerners have come to take for granted is simply unachievable for most.

I think this has always been the case, it's not a new thing.

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