Trump, Having Denounced Amazon’s Shipping Deal, Orders Review of Postal Service | Hacker News Reader

Trump, Having Denounced Amazon’s Shipping Deal, Orders Review of Postal Service

nytimes.com

66 pointsdanso64 comments

The USPS is my favorite shipping company. I hope it survives for a long time. I have two reasons why I like them so much:

* They can't inspect packages without a warrant. I don't ship illegal things, but I like privacy.

* They're the only shipping company that I trust to deliver to an apartment building. Seriously. I've had nightmares with every other company delivering to apartments

I thought they reserved the right to inspect any package for safety or making sure people are misusing something like media rates for other non media things.

Anything that’s a “first class” letter or parcel (big envelope over 3.5oz or not uniformly flat) under 13oz is protected by the 4th amendment. Anything larger or in an actual box can be searched at any time.

I find it hard to believe that the us government would snoop in your emails and in your IM messages, but somehow not submit your physical packages to some amount of noninvasive scanning

Reading emails is a lot easier than scanning packages that people get mad at not arriving on time. I'm sure there's some inspection. But the other companies are most certainly worse.

^^ this. even cursory x-ray inspection is a huge undertaking.

I once worked for the USPS in a Middle Eastern country, and it was our job to assist local customs officials as they scanned / inspected every piece of inbound mail.

They ran each piece through an x-ray, and whenever they spotted a banned item (liquor bottles, sex toys--hell, they even inspected optical discs to make sure they weren't porn), they opened the package and confiscated it.

We cleared about 1 mail truck of mail every night, and it took 5-10 hours. No way that's sustainable on the scale of domestic mail throughput.

What about scanning for moderate amounts of items that could be automatically detected by machines, like cash, or assessing groups of packages in bulk for drugs or explosives with canines?

It’s true... there are limited circumstances by law where mail can be tampered with.

The downside is that if you commit a crime and there is a nexus with the mail, you’re facing a serious felony. Politicians submit ethics paperwork via hand delivery for this reason.

Laws have very little to do with sense. There is a reason why PGP was going to be published as a book of source code to get around the munituons export ban thay affected crytography in the 80/90s by creating a first amendment issue.

per: https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/faq.aspx

Letters cannot be opened without a warrant, but it sounds like they could be subject to scans.

In general though, almost all laws (especially with respect to privacy) were written with physical privacy in mind, not virtual. The statutes around opening a letter is much more well defined those around recording unencrypted emails.

USPS scans first class mail and probably stores the metadata. They definitely store it long enough to support their Informed Delivery service, a free service they have where they email you the scans ahead of delivery.

Agreed. I don't think they get enough acknowledgement.

When I was in the service overseas, the USPS was a lifeline. Thanks to special arrangements between the military and the USPS, I could have anything shipped from the states to wherever I was in the world for the same rate it'd have cost to have it sent to NYC--usually with only a week or so extra shipping time added.

One particular of my book sales was to a military address [one of many but this one stood out]. I go to USPS to ship and the clerk asks me if I'd like to do an "air drop". Uhm, what? "Oh it costs about the same but it's dropped from a helicopter and takes less time" was very roughly what was explained to me. "Please, let's do that" and we did. My first and last and the option was quite cool.

They have a guaranteed monopoly. They ain't going nowhere.

Errr how is usps a monopoly? There a multiple very large companies doing exactly the same thing, who don’t also have to deliver anything below cost, and who get to keep all the money that they do make...

> Errr how is usps a monopoly?

Because it has an actual, written in law, government-enforced monopoly on first class mail, standard mail, and mailbox access.

>* They're the only shipping company that I trust to deliver to an apartment building. Seriously. I've had nightmares with every other company delivering to apartments

This hints at the real reason the postal service is so important to hold on to. They have a mandate to deliver to every person in the country no matter what.[0] They run huge losses to do this, but it's an invaluable service subsidized by taxpayer dollars the same as any other infrastructure. A private company has no incentive to do this if it's not profitable. People in rural areas and unconventional living situations will get screwed.

[0] https://about.usps.com/publications/pub100/pub100_020.htm

That sounds weird because I was just surprised to learn that here in Hawaii there are areas that don't have postal delivery. Not a "put the mailbox out on the highway" kind, but the "we don't go there, get a PO box" kind.

Difficult problem. Rural Free Delivery has a long history with various attempts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_Free_Delivery https://about.usps.com/publications/pub100/pub100_020.htm

If you live in a ZIP code served by an actual Post Office (there is a USPS in that ZIP code) and your home doesn't get delivery service then you're probably entitled to a free PO Box. https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22317/html/upd...

I live in a rural area in the lower 48 and USPS won't deliver here. We have to go to a physical post office and stand in lame lines to get packages. We also have to pay an annual fee for the PO Box, and sometimes there are waiting lists.

FedEx and UPS happily deliver to my front door, 25 miles and down a long dirt road from the nearest town.

> FedEx and UPS happily deliver to my front door, 25 miles and down a long dirt road from the nearest town.

What's the shipping cost, though? It's great that it's a real option either way.

No cost difference from other address destinations in the rest of the state.

Context: USPS-enforced PO Box in Wisconsin, but house-delivery by private companies such as FedEx and UPS.

mkempt is right. There's no premium shipping cost vs any other FedEx/UPS destination.

It's interesting that the USPS is in fact a service explicitly mandated by the US Constitution, not merely an agency that somehow crammed into the commerce clause + necessary and proper clause.

> It's interesting that the USPS is in fact a service explicitly mandated by the US Constitution

No, it is, in fact, not mandated by the Constitution.

Congress explicitly empowered to create post offices and post roads by Art. I, Sec. 8, but that's not a mandate to do so.

A mandated function would be something like the decennial census.

Your observation is contrary to my experience. Where I live UPS and Fedex put packages on my doorstep while USPS leaves them in a post office fourteen miles away. Letters too. Similar stories in other rural places I've lived. Sometimes they don't come for days when the road is bad, but USPS never even tries. I'm pretty sure UPS and Fedex lose money every time they deliver to me, but they do it anyway. USPS never has.

Maybe that wouldn't be true of first class mail as it is for parcels. But we won't know as long as it remains illegal to compete with the USPS in first class.

My experience in the city is that USPS will have a key to apartment buildings and walk ups. I've seen out door mailboxes but everywhere I've lived has had them behind the front door. This means packages are always delivered behind atleast one locked door. FedEx and UPS will ring all the bells and if you're unlucky and no one is home it'll get left in a bush or you'll have to reschedule. I've never had a package stolen, but I've seen the notes left on the front door by unfortunate neighbors.

> ...but it's an invaluable service subsidized by taxpayer dollars ...

No, they are not subsidized by tax payer dollars. From[0] - "The Postal Service receives NO tax dollars for operating expenses and relies on the sale of postage, products and services to fund its operations."

[0]https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-facts/top-10-things...

it's a well known fact that USPS allow Chinese sellers to send cheap products that infringe on IP into the states, thus bankrupting small sellers in US

https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/t/why-does-amazon-al...

It's a well known fact that Chinese sellers are using USPS to get illegal opioids into the US, fueling the fentanyl crisis

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-opioids/chin...

It isn’t the job of usps (or ups, fedex, dhl, ...) to do customs checks (in fact as an arm of the government usps is much more constrained than any private company would be in this regard), the job of prevent drugs/counterfeits in is customs and border control.

I suspect that if there is any reason for usps being favored it’s that the us government signed a treaty that means usps has no choice but to accept mail at below cost.

It should be known that for some time the USPS has scanned and stored the outside of every package/parcel:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tra...

You can see this for yourself by signing up for "Informed Delivery":

https://informeddelivery.usps.com/box/pages/intro/start.acti...

Receive these e-mails in your Inbox every morning for a few months to be reminded of just how much "metadata" can inform on your daily life and activities.

If you don't have a corporate/bulk account, they are still about half the price of competitors for overnight envelopes (as of some months ago, per my experience).

They have a program now where, if you have a P.O. Box, you can receive non-USPS packages at it (once you sign up, and using the address they provide you in the format they indicate). They don't have email notifications for these, yet -- they do for some other classes of mail. And sometimes at my post office, it can take a (partial) day for them to go from receiving the package to having the lockbox key or notification in your P.O. Box. However, when I looked at my local UPS Store for their comparable service, it's now gone from about double the USPS price a few years ago, to about quadrupal their price.

I also like supporting the USPS, where employees still have living wages and careers. Well, at least UPS is, last I knew, not all contractors like FedEx is. But I think their stores are franchises that handle their own employment.

(And the "USPS is going broke" rhetoric is driven by political manipulations designed to attack it, forcing it to book future expenses its competitors and other businesses don't, rather that current P/L and "normal" accounting. Not that they shouldn't look for new opportunities -- such as but not only this package handling -- when they are not hindered in same by same or similar external control; perhaps explaining the continued lack of email notification for non-USPS packages, for which there is a ready and minimally demanding physical solution already in place for triggering same for other types of mail that I noticed and confirmed with my local post office employee.)

Anyway, I don't have to worry about Amazon et al. packages sitting out on my front stoop, tempting thieves and the rain. Without breaking the bank. Also gives me a street address for some sidelines.

If he's talking about the UPU and shipping rates for China to the US, he's right.

But, if so, it isn't something the USPS can change.

It's one of the things being discussed:

"GOP Senator moves to close shipping loophole that helps Chinese businesses on Amazon. ... In general, the system is set up so that wealthier countries pay more than poorer nations, but in recent years the UPU has provided a huge opening for foreign manufacturers, particularly those in China, to cheaply get products into U.S. online marketplaces like Amazon."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/10/senator-bill-cassidy-ending-...

Not that Amazon needs the help, but isn’t the purpose of the postal service to support commerce and not make a profit? Make it’s time to rethink that, but I have little faith this is anything more than a political stunt or personal grudge.

USPS Registered Mail can be insured up to $25,000 including cash or jewelry. Good luck doing this with another shipper, who strictly speaking to not sell insurance but rather a declared value with all kinds of limitations. https://consumerist.com/2013/06/12/ups-doesnt-offer-insuranc...

Laws concerning US mail privacy are old, dating back from the American republic times. They are hard to revert. The electronic communications snooping is how we operate now- with vague and flexible "living document" style laws.

I am pro-free market and fiscally conservative and don't get why Trump is picking this fight with Amazon. Amazon is fantastic for consumers. Sure they have put ton's of American small brick and mortars out of business and even brought down retail institutions such as Sears and perhaps next Macy's. Yet they provide an outlet for small niche makers to sell their products to a huge online market for essentially no-overhead. Market decides, and the market has chosen the Amazon model.

In terms of them "dodging" state taxes, as far as I know they are fully compliant. If president Trump wants to make them pay their fair share, then adjust the laws. Wasn't this the same argument Trump made about not paying a ton of taxes, he said it is just smart business and he is totally compliant within the law.

I don't think it's hard to get why. Punishing Bezos for Washington Post.

Edit: I dislike Bezos and am boycotting Amazon. I quit my prime sub and stopped buying from my Amazon account. And this is still obvious to me.

I don't buy that. That is what the media wants you to believe that it's a petty personal vendetta. Think about the conflict of interest there from the media.

I don't think Trump thinks attacking back is petty. He pretty reliably attacks anyone who attacks him.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/322...

When you’re POTUS that’s petty.

OK, so why do you believe Trump is picking this particular fight with Amazon?

If I had to speculate because Amazon is hurting and putting lots of small American businesses out of business. Many workers and owners are part of his base.

Why isn't Walmart drawing his ire as well then?

Because Walmart doesn’t have a newspaper that’s been critical of him.

Trump attacks the Washington Post and complains about Amazon pretty much in the same breath. It is easy to draw one’s own conclusion that he is attempting to ‘punch back’, as his wife described his tendency.

>don't get why Trump ...

Time to read up on Narcissistic Injury.

I think m52go's comment above is in the right direction. If Trump just announced a review of the postal service, or went on about what poor shape it was in, it wouldn't get much traction in the press and therefore in the publics' minds. So Amazon is a useful scapegoat to drum up publicity about the state of the postal service.

If meaningful beneficial changes come out of this review then they will be reported in the media in the context of his spat with Amazon, regardless of the impact on Amazon itself. Otherwise it's unlikely that those changes will be deemed newsworthy (because they aren't salacious and they don't directly affect people's lives), or if they are reported that they will be easily absorbed.

Linking any changes to the fight with Amazon provides a mental anchor with previous coverage given that any changes may take months to be put into place.

Do you actually believe he would care about the USPS if not for his spat with Bezos? I don’t.

Yes, if he feels that changes to it would affect how his performance is ultimately perceived in some tangible way. I suspect he cares more about that than the spat with his Bezos because it affects his legacy (brand). The spat with Bezos is just an added bonus.

We are not a banana republic. Whatever the merits of Trump's complaints regarding Amazon, this is not how the system is supposed to work. The president is ordering a review of the Post Office because of a personal grudge against a newspaper. This isn't acceptable use of power.

Add it to the long list. At this point, we are a banana republic.

Is that the right pay grade?

To my knowledge, the USPS has been struggling for a while, and making it more sustainable is something that's critical.

In typical Trump fashion, the core issue has been latched to a very clear & tangible scapegoat (in this case, Amazon) so that people (and media) debate it ad nauseum instead of the core issue (streamlining the USPS)...which is something everyone should agree is important no matter what.

Most people have the wrong idea. It is actually profitable but back during the Bush years a law was passed requiring USPS to set aside enough money to fund a 75 year retirement liability, and gave them 10 years to do it. They "lose" billions each year only because of this requirement to set aside billions for pensions.

https://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432

https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/be-careful-what-you-assume

So what you’re saying is it’s hemorrhaging money during the unprecedented explosion in package shipping volumes.

Remember, that “pension” everyone likes to mention is there because USPS pays its workers peanuts compared to eg UPS.

I worked at both for a short time in the early 2000s and I got paid more at USPS than I did at UPS. USPS was more reliable than UPS as far as employment and overall a better place to work. As a matter of fact UPS ranks as one of the worst places I ever worked at. The amount of screaming and yelling between management and workers that goes on there is some of the worse I have ever seen at any work place I've been at.

I think it's worth knowing whether or not his claims about Amazon are actually true. Worst case, it'll save taxpayers some money, best case we can be done hearing about it and know it's a moot issue.

moot (irrelevant), not mute (silent)

No, worst case it provides some trumped up grounds for pressuring the USPS into insisting on uneconomical terms and denying Amazon service, thereby simultaneously driving the USPS even further into the red and screwing over Amazon investors & customers (ie almost all Americans), all to gratify Trump's vendetta against the WaPo.

They're not true.

We won't stop hearing them.

I think the worst case is substantially worse than that. Look at the so-called "voter fraud commission". They pretend-investigated a non-problem, creating a lot of news that could only reduce confidence in the US electoral system. And then it was abruptly shut down in a way that certainly added no clarity to the issue.

There's no particular reason to think the task force will actually be either equipped to investigate this usefully or disposed to investigate it fairly. So the worst case for me is something more like, "Politicized task force produces woefully biased report in order to indirectly attack the free press, further reducing confidence in American government, increasing uncertainty for businesses, and reducing economic growth."

Finally!!!!

It's a well known fact that Chinese sellers are using USPS to get illegal opioids into the US, fueling the fentanyl crisis

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-opioids/chin...

also, it's a well known fact that USPS allow Chinese sellers to send cheap products that infringe on IP into the states, thus bankrupting small sellers in US

https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/t/why-does-amazon-al...

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