Your comment suggests that Tesla's claims about the driver having his hands off the wheel for x seconds before a crash could be wrong. If the sensors detect the drivers hands are not on the wheel when they actually are on the wheel, then data logged about how long the driver's hands were off the wheel should be considered suspect.
I hope that's being investigated.
Personally, I'm having trouble believing the driver who died in the recent accident ignored the warnings for six seconds before the head-on collision, especially when he knew Autopilot didn't work well at that section of road.
I'm not familiar with how the system works. If the warning engages, is there a guarantee that the driver will have to take over shortly? Or are there scenarios when the warning turns off by itself and so the driver could have been waiting to see if the car would correct?
[Edit: lolc and Vik1ng pointed out that the warning isn't related to unsafe conditions as I implied. It's used whenever the sensors think the driver's hands are off the wheel.]
There were never warnings at that time. Tesla just worded it like that to mislead people. It only talks about videos early in the drive.
This seems pretty clear:
"The driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning earlier in the drive and the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision."
Tesla seems to think they know exactly what happened after only reviewing data collected from the car. They see what they want to see and have become blind to any other possibility. I think that's terrifying. I couldn't trust an automaker with that kind of arrogance.
Dumb question: if I have to constantly stay vigilant with 1-second reaction time because at any time my assisted-driving car might try to kill me (exactly how changes every time the software updates) -- isn't it less effort to just drive my car myself, so I mostly just have to worry about the drivers around me?
;-)
Who cares if he had 5 seconds to see the barrier if he only had 0.5 seconds to realize that the car went into casual murder mode right as it veers into the barrier. They make it sound like it had to have been driver error with facts that are irrelevant to the question at hand. Your assumption that Tesla claimed he didn't have his hands on the wheel at the time of the accident is exactly what I'm talking about, Tesla's PR release is filled with weasel words to do exactly that.
I'm not even trying to suggest that Autopilot is less safe than an alert human driver, but one thing is clear, we certainly can't trust Tesla to determine how safe it is.
You are wrong: "the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision."
see: https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-last-week%E2%80%99s-accide...
Perhaps you shouldn't attack Tesla for using "weasel words" in their press release if you don't take the time to read it.
Edit: You seem to have edited your post without any disclaimer. Your edits were not visible when I responded. Most people on HN will edit their comments with an "Edit: I was wrong about ____" rather than ninja editing the mistaken claim away. This help make discussions easier to follow and limits misunderstandings.
Originally when this was posted there was concern over if "prior to the collision" was talking about the 6 seconds before the collision or earlier in the drive. In any case, Tesla is implying that the victim wasn't driving responsibly and there's no data released to the public that would back up such a claim.
So, if the statement is actually carrying more information about the reliability of the hand-detection system when it sounds like it should be a claim about the driver's hands (the subject of the passive-voice sentence), it is misleading.
This video is quite relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I
A fully alert driver trying (and succeeding) in reproducing this behaviour. Observe how long the barrier is visible, how long it takes him to react, and how close the car was to hitting the barrier.
Musk has commented publicly before (though somewhat obliquely) about this flaw. He indicated that the company is trying to build a map of reference data so that it can be filtered out automatically, and real hazards can be seen/found.
This is part of why trying to second guess a driver or autopilot is insane; a crashing and non-crashing car are almost identical, except for the crash.
Its foolish to oversell thru marketing the capabilities of AP, as it's fairly easy to conflate reliability with observed behavior.
As long as the system mimics enough of the capabilities of full autonomy and it's oversold as such customers will underestimate the risks and become victims of an unfinished product
https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...
If you use this to market your car without any caveats, don't be dismissal of some people who might read into that your car is capable of self-driving, when in reality its clearly absent of anything of the sort.
Owners see marketing occasionally. Owners see the reminder that they have to stay alert 100% of the time each time they turn on Autopilot. Owners get the alert that they need to put their hands back on the wheel. And so forth.
If you've got data about owners being confused, please share.
Meanwhile, next time an owner offers anecdata about what they personally have learned about Autopilot's capabilities, perhaps you could respond to that, instead of telling the owner that they're being dismissive.
Autopilot is a well known word which suggests a certain level of autonomousness and a car that might kill you if you take your attention away for 6 seconds simply does not qualify for that name. Tesla changing the name from autopilot to something better resembling reality would send a strong message to people to be more careful with using it while the attention is somewhere else
Airplane autopilots really are solving a much simpler problem than even a level 3 autonomous car has to solve.
The most advanced autopilots can automatically takeoff and land, but that requires substantial ground equipment at each airport to support.
You say that it would take a massive investment but realistically existing signage, reflectors, and road markings probably cost more than the equivalent for an autonomous vehicle would.
The exciting thing about self-driving cars this time was that they worked on existing roads, making them financially feasible.
Perhaps final stages of ILS approach? That'd be the exception, but pilots are trained and certified for this - and definitely not allowed to snooze off then.
(I'm not a pilot, but have spent a fair amount of time and money on various PC flight sims; edit: and used to drive a Mazda 3 with a very good radar cruise control and AEB, before ditching it for a bicycle because getting old and fat).
The driver is licensed to operate the motor vehicle. It is their responsibility to be familiar with the safe operation of the vehicle.
> how to handle autopilot and its common errors and how to correct them?
Do you believe that anything additional was required here other than keeping the car in it's lane?
Also, note that the beep is the driver taking over from autopilot.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8a0jfh/autopil...
But blaming this on the use of the term "Autopilot" is idiotic and discussion centering around it is silly when there are much more important questions to answer about the design of autopilot, other driver assistance systems, and the future of self-driving cars.
99% invisible has a really interesting story about this topic: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magen...
GA autopilots may be more limited, but that’s not what the general public is thinking of when you say autopilot.
This is far from a defense of Tesla. On the contrary, the public's ignorance about what capabilities are implied by 'autopilot' suggest to me that Tesla should not be using the word.
I once had the privilege to sit in the cockpit during an entire flight. That was in the late nineties and probably would be completely out of the question nowadays.
The weather and visibility were shitty and what was really interesting was that they initiated the landing automatically, but when the runway become visible (about 400 meters) the first officer took over and landed the plane manually.
Two other things I learned is the amount of manuals they have available in that very cramped space (maybe maintained electronically nowadays) and that when you think that they just key in a couple sequences into the flight management system to then play solitaire you would be very wrong.
Both pilots where permanently active and on high alert during the entire one hour flight. That may be a bit more relaxed on long distance flights, but people who believe it's like driving a bus are really, really wrong.
it was an amazing and very interesting experience.
Tesla is claiming that if the drivers hands are not on the wheel then they are not responsible what what their "autopilot" does.
Autopilots in commercial aircraft - the kind that you'd be flying from San Francisco to New York are capable of far more then just dumb cruise control, including navigation and landing.
If 'maintain pitch and direction' were enough to be 'autopilot', then my SO's '97 Toyota Avalon had 'autopilot'.
If I name something warp drive, are you then entitled to believe that you will now be able to travel faster than light? Will you blame me for naming the product incorrectly if you travel at a speed less than c?
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Autonomous_car#/Levels_of_drivin...
pilots are level 3 upwards according to this classification. Level 2 systems are called assistants. If tesla would adhere to the industry agreement, they would call their system an "assistant" and not a pilot.
well, you are driving a car from a paypal mafia founder. why everyone forget that Musk started by ignoring banking regulations and mostly laundering money quasi legally, while later on holding funds from everyone for arbitrarily enforced rules, while completely ignoring user complaints. (bye HN karma :)
seriously, why is that everyone hates paypal ethics but loves musk and hold him as holy?
It is fairly easy to find out what PayPal used to be like when Musk ran it - just ask some older eBay sellers.
Not unique to PayPal. Deposit a check of an amount that's unusual for your "profile" at Chase and it'll sit on the money for three weeks.
When I said 'first new thing in aerospace since the 70s' I meant shipped. Things that never shipped don't exist.
The Shuttle I suppose could count but it was a mixed bag and in some ways a step backward from the Saturn V.
Seems like people have flipped from mindless Musk worship to being haters all the sudden.
Tesla may fail but they validated the market for high-end electric cars. Before Tesla the popular narrative was that EVs are impractical, slow, have poor range, and can't possibly ever compete with ICEs. People argued that modern transportation was absolutely and fundamentally inseparable from oil, even spinning this into popular peak oil doomsday narratives.
The biggest threat to Tesla today is that now that they've validated the market larger more experienced car companies are jumping on the EV bandwagon.
Perhaps Delta and Atlas rockets were amazing innovations. They did great jobs with the recent mars missions. I don't recall getting particularly excited for many mars launches. (the missions were cool though).
Those boosters landing together though made me fell like a little kid watching a shuttle launch. But those boosters man. Maybe that's not innovation but that landing sure felt like a big moment to me.
I think the parent poster is trying to say, for a long time it felt like small refinements.
The funniest part of Tesla's statement is the fact that it basically renders "Autopilot" worthless. Or, at best, turns it into nothing more than an Adaptive Cruise Control system with an extremely misleading (and dangerous) name.
Tesla has been all too happy to let people believe that Autopilot is what the name implies. They only make a real effort to correct that misconception when something bad happens. Then they finally say "It's not actually autopilot, you're still supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road at all times", to which we collectively shrug and say "Well then what the hell is the point of Autopilot? And why did you give it such a misleading name?"
You know what I really want? I want a vehicle to save me when I screw up. I love skiing, but it's a dangerous sport, and the most dangerous part is driving home. You're in the mountains in the dark, the road might be icy, and you're tired from a long day of strenuous exercise.
I want to see humans and machines working together. A car that could spot deer on or beside the road would save lives. They can be very difficult to see in the dark, and hitting one could send it through your windshield at highway speed.
Augmenting human ability has a lot of potential. Even just adding sensors that humans don't have would be huge. I bet those deer are way more obvious in infrared.
If you fall asleep while driving, it may prevent you from driving into a barrier or on-coming traffic. It's not meant to take over the act of driving from you, but to provide assistance.
Ugh.
...and be ready to correct it should it try to steer into objects. IMHO that's even worse than plain old "manual" driving --- at least in that case, the car doesn't have a mind of its own and won't suddenly decide to steer itself. It'll keep going in a straight line even if (absolutely not recommended on a public road, but a good way of checking the suspension and steering) you take your hands off the wheel.
To me, it sounds more like driving with Tesla autopilot is like being a driving instructor for a not-too-great learner.
This is literally what Teslas autopilot system is.
It is adaptive cruise control and lane assist.
They do not claim to be self driving. It is not a level 3 system. It is level 2.
The purpose of autopilot is to have both the features of lane assist and adaptive cruise control.
What's the big deal? Why is this so surprising to you? This is what it is. Go buy a car from Google if you want a self driving level 3 car.
If you don't want a level 2 system then don't buy it.
The FTC should require them to stop using the term Autopilot. The common understanding of that term makes it misleading.
Words matter and Tesla is trying to have the benefit of the term without the responsibility for what it implies.
I don't think the issue here is Tesla misusing the word. The issue is that the common (non-pilot) understanding of the term is wrong. People piloting heavy machinery have an onus to maintain their currency & proficiency, as well as be ready to correct for faults in their instrumentation and pilot aids.
Autopilot is intended to be a tool to reduce pilot workload so you can focus on other aspects of maintaining correct control of the vehicle. (Namely in an aircraft it assists you with aviation, leaving you better able to navigate & communicate.) Instead what we are seeing with these assists in cars is that people are using these pilot aids and then engaging in unrelated distractions.
Airplane autopilot: Engage, divert attention for minutes, not die (consistently). Tesla autopilot: Engage, divert attention for 10 seconds, die (also consistently).
Airplane autopilot!=Tesla autopilot. Name is misused.
Also take a moment to appreciate what you say "It's ok to use this name on cars, because professional pilots know you can't completely rely on plane autopilots. People should know that and if they die it's their fault."
The video you provided shows a very unusual case. Most autopilots on small aircraft are not really running software so such "bugs" are virtually non-existent, and in large aircraft they only use tested-to-death systems and they practically never bug out.
New autopilots in commercial airliners can do many things (follow GPS tracks or radio navigation waypoints, control engine throttle, line up and bring the airplane 50-100ft over the runway etc) but they never do collision avoidance, landings or terrain mapping. Airliners also have alarms for low altitude (most have radar altimeters) but they prompt the pilot for action, they're not supposed to avoid anything on their own. Apparently Tesla doesn't even do that.
[1] https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-airplane-landings-be-conducte...
[2] https://www.quora.com/How-often-are-airliners-landed-using-a...
[3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/columnist/cox/2014/02/...
[4] https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/technical/65056-autoland-...
The car is warning you if you take your hands off the steering wheel. I don't see how anyone but a moron would value their misconceptions about the term "autopilot" over the clear signals that your hands are required to be on the steering wheel.
I wish people would stop bringing this idiotic point about the term "autopilot" and instead talk about how the different designs of autopilot can encourage or discourage attentiveness in operators.
>I don't think the issue here is Tesla misusing the word. The issue is that the common (non-pilot) understanding of the term is wrong
In fact, because it's well-known that there's a common misunderstanding of the term (as you've acknowledged) but the company chooses to use it anyway, then that's sufficient to represent intentional misuse. They are leveraging this misunderstanding in their branding, then hiding behind the "real" meaning when it's convenient.
Companies test and invest heavily in their branding, which includes a full reasoning of the connotations associated with the words they choose. There is literally no way that Tesla is unaware of people's common misunderstanding.
So, maybe it's clearer if you look at it another way: why choose a word that could create any confusion when there are countless other choices?
>the pilot in command in this video is actively scanning for traffic, he is physically positioned to take control of the aircraft, he is paying attention to instrumentation, and is actively participating on frequency. In other words despite having an autopilot: he is still piloting the aircraft.
If a driver took a similar monitoring posture there are n-situations in which he/she would not have time to react to avoid an accident. There is generally far-greater margin of error and time for correction when an aircraft's autopilot fails. This is why a system that requires such monitoring in an automobile is a fundamentally flawed design. There are too many situations in which there is simply not enough time.
Because drivers are expected to a.) allow the system control of the vehicle but b.) recognize its failures and take back control to correct within milliseconds? That's super-human and, at best, adds n units to the human's reaction time--with potentially devastating consequences.
And, remember, it's beyond "environment monitoring". Drivers must now correct for when the vehicle does not recognize a hazardous situation and also respond when the vehicle itself suddenly creates a hazardous situation (like veering towards a barrier). There is no amount of "environment scanning" that can predict such a malfunction.
Pilots may realize that autopilot is a term that can refer to extremely simplistic systems that require constant pilot attention. The public at large that Tesla is selling to, however, equates the term with big airliner autopilots that could land the plane if needed.
Which is a tiny tiny percentage of the general population.
As has been said it is what the general population understands "autopilot" to mean which is the important part. The fact that the niche and general understandings are different should not be a gap that a company inserts itself into to mislead the public as to their products capabilities.
Yes, most people don't know the nuances of what "Autopilot" means in the aviation industry, but trying to educate the general public is a losing proposition vs just telling Tesla to rename the system.
I got into the habit of periodically giving it a good squeeze while resting my hand on it.
What I haven't seen discussed: Are these cars from other manufacturers having similar problems with crashing into things? Are Tesla crashes considered more newsworthy, which is why we hear more about them? Or are drivers of these other cars more attentive? Or do these other cars actually have better technology?
Just curious why the discussion is always Tesla "autopilot" vs Waymo "full autonomy" vs unaided humans, when other manufacturers are also putting level-2 "lane keeping" systems on the road.
Because, ironically, Tesla and Waymo (and Uber) have been more suscessful at deliberately drawing media attention. The thing is, once you draw media attention, it tends to stick around even when the story goes someplace you don't want it to.
Other car manufacturers are more careful than Tesla in what they let get out of the lab. For example, they wouldn’t have to send out a firmware update that, as a new requirement, forces users to keep their hands on the steering wheel (https://thenextweb.com/artificial-intelligence/2016/09/23/te...) because they wouldn’t yet dare deploy one that doesn’t.
And I don’t think their technology is worse than Tesla’s. See for example https://www.technologyreview.com/s/520431/driverless-cars-ar... (2013).
I trust the intelligence of drivers, but this brings up a good point. Could calling it "autopilot" be perhaps a bit much right now? I'm not claiming it's false advertising kind of bad, but I can see it being better for marketing than giving a reasonable sense of what the feature is capable of.
This is not what I experience. Maybe the sensor in your steering wheel is faulty? For me, the warning goes away as soon as I lightly jiggle the steering wheel (I stop as soon as I encounter any resistance).
.@brand on a public twitter with enough followers to care about usually gets a pretty quick response.
Hell, how many times have YC companies prioritized support issues because a user posted it here on HN? I see it all the time with coinbase and crew, even googlers hanging out seem to be able to get account bans reviewed relatively easily.
I would argue the /r/teslamotors sub would be BETTER than going to Tesla directly. The motorist that died in this crash had contacted Tesla multiple times regarding this issue, since the crash plenty of others have made videos of similar behavior at similar median splits across the interstate system.
If the driver had made those complaints public perhaps others would have corroborated his accounts and or recreated the issue with video proof. Certainly putting somewhat public pressure on Tesla to fix the problem quickly.
When autopilot on airplane crashes the plane, what do you think is the primary cause?
If it does not detect hands on the wheel it disengages.
The argument they make is that having hands on wheel is, effectively, having the driver in the loop as a part of the safety system ready and able to take over 'instantaneously' if necessary.