“God is a Verb” by R. Buckminster Fuller (1968)
wholeearth.com
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Another book that touches on this subject is Etienne Gilson's "God and Philosophy"[1]. One of the most interesting bits for me is where he draws attention to the Old Testament where God reveals himself to Moses as "I am He who is". I always thought that was a rather curiously mysterious way of revealing oneself. But on this understanding of God as the act of existence, it makes perfect sense. God is, or God is Is, so to speak. So really, we trace this understanding of God -- albeit not a philosophical one -- to at least the second millenium BC.
[0] https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/9781351477703 [1] https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300092998/god-and-philos...
Monism: https://meaningness.com/monism
Are you saying that this concept is mostly absent from the Taoist texts you've read?
"God likes to play hide-n-seek, but because there is nothing outside of God, he has no one but himself to play with!" http://educateinspirechange.org/spirituality/concept-great-p...
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism
I suppose my one point of disagreement is that the poem is philosophically aligned with Questions of God-ness being pointless...the poem doesn't strike me that way (totally subjective of course). And Buckminster Fuller was well known to have undergone a pretty profound mystical experience (whatever that means) that shaped the rest of his life.
So you could say all those names explain the concept of God.
This link provides some examples: https://www.gotquestions.org/names-of-God.html
Edit: maybe more interesting is the Wikipedia articles listing the names of different kinds of religion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God
Your analagy is akin to The Cloud of Unknowing, a spiritual guide to becoming closer to god by "unknowing", written by a 14th century christian mystic.
Personally I didn't care at all until I had a direct experience that I couldn't explain without "spiritual" vocabulary. And now I'm embroiled in these sorts of debates for fun...
I actually think these academic discussions of "what is god precisely" and "how does it work" only really sway a small subset of people. IMO it's "try these techniques out for yourself and decide for yourself," not "surely this explanation of the entirety of existence will sway you!" I'm with you, I don't think there's a formal text definition of god that ever would have convinced me to "believe." Either you have a notion of a higher power or unitive/connective force and have experienced it, or you haven't and you're working with the evidence you've got (math, the Bible, whatever). Take a few psychedelics or do a bunch of meditation and you'll end up feeling like most practitioners do, which is that you have a strong ineffable experience that doesn't translate well into words. Or don't! God's just a made-up word anyway for an aspect of the universe / human experience that we have a hard time defining (one of my definitions).
What's more interesting is the comment you're replying to actually describes the super-personal nature of God - what Christians call the Trinity. Writings expounding on the Trinity have filled many volumes of Christian theology - it's something far from being "swept under the rug".
As for believers, you can see from this thread that there are many interpretations of God, but on HN they do lean toward the fairly abstract.
Personally, I see our mere existence as proof of God. We can observe God because we are God.
The only thing I've ever really been hung up on is the question of whether God can observe himself to validate his own existence. It's fairly paradoxical.
This is the god of Spinoza. A god that is everything and everywhere is, at the same time, nothing. It is nothing more than the worshiping of the universe.
EDIT: I re-read the post and no, they didn't seem to mean that.
It corresponds with God's name of himself in the OT as well as Jesus's name of Himself as well:
“If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”.
“Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
then in John's Gospel, Jesus says, "before Abraham was, I AM"
> yes. God is love, and God is hope, but those do not constitute the entirety of what God is
This is a reply in the context of an epistemological argument that that word you are using simply cannot mean things if you keep using it like that, and very much not the things you quoted... Not "yes": "NaN" or "undefined symbol" or "mu".
How many liters of god can I pour into my bathtub? How many liters of Coca-cola? ... We used to, but we no longer talk about god as a 'thing'.
"Coca-cola is love, coca-cola is hope, but coca-cola is so much more"...? Sure. Things respond well to metaphor, and simile.
"Hate is love, hate is hope, but hate is so much more"...? No, doesn't work, because hate is a meaningful concept. Meaningful concepts cannot arbitrarily be ascribed other meaningful concepts while retaining their meaning. "God" can though. Despite its framing, like in your post, as something that should not be able to arbitrarily be ascribed to other concepts.
God is itchiness, god is morning sunrises, god is monkey brains covered in dew. God is all, god is nothing, alpha and omega...? That "god" cannot be a god, or GOD. That "god" is both an abstract and meaningless notion. That god is awesome for selling subscription services, tho.
Interesting claim.
In any case, I wasn't responding to your comment about theological noncognitivism, I was commenting on parent's reference to apophatic theology (theology which emphasizes our inability to know God with our minds) by merely driving the point home with some traits or characteristics commonly used to refer to God but also saying these things are not the entirety of God's being or character. The rest of your silliness doesn't really apply since I was not arguing "God is everything"
Maybe we can start a database and every person creates a unique id for their current definition of intangible things. Even if they copy the exact definition for an intangible thing from someone elses intangible thing, it gets a new id. If they want to modify a definition of their own intangible thing, new id. Then every recorded use of the word requires a link to the definition that individual was using at the time of the conversation. In the case of "God", I don't think UUIDs will be big enough. The db will, of course, have to be decentralized and blockchain based.
While no doubt an eccentric genius and early advocate of systems theory, I can't really give him a pass after coining the term "synergetics" [0]. The common form of the word used today is - synergy. He also coined the terms "cloud nine", "tensegrity", and "dymaxion".
"Experience with synergetics encourages a new way of approaching and solving problems." - R. Buckminster Fuller
Reader beware: much of his writings are either math heavy or word salad. Or both.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergetics_(Fuller) Edit: corrected spelling of his name
"The severest blow of all was that both the national electricians and plumber's organizations said they would have to be paid to take apart all the prefabricated and pre-installed wiring and plumbing, and put it together again, else they would not connect the otherwise "ready to live in" house to the town's or city's electrical lines and water mains. They held exclusively the official license to do this by long-time politically enacted laws."
-Fuller
Not sure if that's too abstract, but your statement that "the world has been significantly less predictable since the Enlightenment" made me wonder, because you'd think "less predictable" means that understanding has gone down.
Of course our understanding has increased. But that has generated rapid and accelerating changes in society and a monumental increase in its complexity, which together, make it significantly harder to predict the future of the social world.
I am not saying that we don't have a better predictive grasp of the natural world. We obviously do.
But you also don't need a religion to play with the concept of God. And you certainly don't even need God to have a religion.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
I don't mean this to argue otherwise - it is my personal belief that it is not possible to prove or disprove the existence of God with reason alone, thus why the argument has lasted for millenia. The mass of texts written to do one or the other are worth, in my opinion, for nothing much besides exercising your mind.
Not it doesn't. It assumes there's at least one moral compass.
Or to put it another way, perhaps you're asking for a three dimensional array, but you want its contents to only have two-dimensional qualities. Or you want force and acceleration, but no mass.
You want a God that hands out straightjackets and drugs. I think he has a higher goal than that.
I can't really empathize with someone who sees no value in suffering. Suffering is not the ultimate evil, and pleasure is not the ultimate good. Go read some Cicero. He tears Epicurus a new one in much better language than I can muster.
My God is never so small as to hide in the cracks in reality.
However, since God operates physics, he certainly could "violate" it, but we believe he has done so only in very rare cases to get peoples' attention.
But I wholeheartedly agree with your first statement, and I find it profoundly frustrating that atheist tracts immediately assume that you do believe in a God of the gaps.
That being said, it's a pretty involved discussion, and I agree that a Hacker News thread is an odd place for it, though a rare thread like this is the closest it ever gets.
Let me clarify. In my view what we have now with these religions and dogma is a big centuries long game of telephone across generations and languages.
If you've done something good you've done something in the spirit of god. There's no reward, it's just a direction. But see that there, the missing "o"? God, Good, same word. See? No mystery, just a linguistic error.
IMHO God is not an object or actor or creature or person, none of that. God doesn't want anything, takes no action, has no dreams. God is the moral direction of most good. A direction, you know, just like the direction North. North doesn't want you to be more North, North doesn't hate south or East.
I cry over the thousands of years of wasted time where humanity has tried to figure out the demands of an entity that simply doesn't exist.
Instead, we got dragged into wars, instigated by rulers who manipulated followers of so-called 'holy books' into killing their brethren. We denied education to large parts of the population. We suppressed anything resembling science&progress because it might offend an imaginary being.
It's a frigging disaster.
Imagine a world where we would have followed science and reason early. Where we didn't destroy libraries, but gradually improved their wisdom. All those years down the drain. Sigh.
Having seen the history of tribalism fused with areligious and antireligious ideologies and empowered by applied science in the modern era, I can't see it as particularly better than the results of tribalism fused with religious ideology but without systematic science earlier in history.
Science is a powerful multiplier, but inherently value-free; the values to which it is applied necessarily come from elsewhere
That said: The definition of 'tribe' already implies shared values (more often than not centered around a primitive version of the golden rule)
No, you can't. (And not just in the sense that science falsifies rather than verifies.)
Ethical/moral statements always have a value component that is empirically unfalsifiable. They sometimes also have a falsifiable factual premise that, along with a set of value premises, supports a conclusion. Science can falsify the fact component, and sufficient failute to falsify can justify belief in the false component, but cannot falsify or (by failing to falsify) justify the value component, and therefore cannot justify the statement as a whole.
That's just flat our wrong. Morality is fluid and has been re-defined by people living in tribes or larger societies. One can argue fairly well that we would already live in a more just world if we would have skipped that non-sense of believing in a higher being.
For example, we now agree slavery is kinda bad. Yet, not too long ago the bible was used to justify slavery around the world. Who's to thank for this progress? Certainly not religion.
The Christian religion (including the Bible, but not always by the subset of Christianity which holds that the former is entirely contained in the latter) was likewise used to justify abolition, and this, like justification of slavery, goes back to the fairly early days of organized Christianity.
That Christianity isn't a unified hive mind?
> Shouldn't the literal word of the most moral being in the universe be clear regarding slavery, at the very least?
Arguably it should be, but then the idea that the Bible is the literal word of God is not, itself, a doctrine shared by the whole, or even majority, of the Christian community (it's a doctrine primarily of the evangelical and fundamentalist branches of Protestantism.)
If they claim to have direct communication with the creator of the universe, like all christian communities do, they should have at least a minimum standard of congruence. Or is he just having a laugh with some of them?
Well (1) all Christian communities do not claim that all Christian communities have direct communication of that kind (in fact, Christian communities often claim that other such communities are deficient, and perhaps willfully so, in there regard), and (2) I don't even think all Christian communities claim that even they themwelves have communication of the kind that would support any conclusion much stronger than that that community’s authoritative teachings are free from error (certainly not that any subject of a specified degree of material impact should be addressed.)
Moral questions are (or at a minimum involve subordinate questions which are) outside the scope of empirical science; in this way they are similar to many religious questions (and the categories overlap), but they are not the same as, or a subset of, religious questions.
Yes, they are. Science can answer is, it can't answer ought.
(It can help reach practical conclusions from moral axioms applied to concrete facts, but that's not really answering moral questions: the choice of axioms is the thing that answers the moral questions, and science can't help you there.)
Actually, the biggest and dirtiest wars of at least our recent history were actually driven by men who were atheists (or at least non-theists). Hitler, Pol-pot, Mussolini, Mao, Stalin, Lenin... all atheists with body counts in the tens (hundreds?) of millions.
Furthermore, Some of the biggest advances in the sciences (take for example the scientific method as described by Sir Francis Bacon assumed that the universe itself was ordered by God and therefore science was actually possible) and the institutions of higher learning were started as ways to train people for purposes of theology (thinking here of places like Oxford and Princeton).
Religion has actually been a huge driver in our ability to teach and understand the world.
Hitler was a catholic, he killed atheists and despised the evolutionary theory. After all, Arian people were supposed to be god's chosens not those jews. He wrote this himself in Mein Kampf.
Stalin was a student at a seminary.
Every US president has been at last a theist. How many wars has the US been in? How many deaths?
Wars have many reasons, most of them non religious. Religion is just used as a excuse and it works every time.
If you can prove to me that these men were actually acting in accordance with the stated doctrines of the institutions that they claimed, then your point might be valid. However, it isn't and it won't be because they were not.
Man corrupts religions to his advantage—that is not religion's fault. It is man's.
First you lie and claim Hitler was an atheist when in fact he was a catholic until the day he died, and then is somehow my fault? Isn't lying in the ten commandments?
I don't know if in his heart he was truly a devout servant of the lord or if he was just pretending, but most importantly, you don't either. All we can be sure is that he claimed to be one, and that the Catholic church embraced him, made treaties with his government, celebrated his birthday officially every year and never excomulgated him. That sounds like a better catholic than most, he made the church a lot of money and, they gladly took it.
Whatever he was, he was not an atheist. And he didn't claim to be one, in fact, he claimed the opposite.