Comment by bmelton | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bmelton | Hacker News Reader

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You state:

> you shouldn't be able to walk around with a rocket launcher or semi-automatic weapon

Generally speaking, this statement speaks to a lack of information regarding what semi-automatic is or what it means. Most firearms sold today are semi-automatic. Banning semi-automatic firearms bans the majority of firearms.

That you later go on to state "You don't need automatic weapons to defend..." implies to me that you've conflated automatic and semi-automatic. You cannot conflate those two terms in good faith and claim to be having a reasonable and informed debate.

You also assert that nobody's saying anything about taking guns away, but Hillary Clinton (and other politicians) repeatedly called for Australian-style gun buybacks, which were mandatory, which are the same as confiscation. I'll broadly agree that it isn't the popular sentiment, but suggesting that nobody's calling for it is disingenuous at the very least.

Moreover, from your link, the following statements are at odds with your assertion that the second amendment isn't under attack.

> Weapons of war have no place in our communities. Our nation requires a comprehensive assault weapons ban

> Limiting high-powered weapons to the military has worked elsewhere to eliminate the opportunity for mass shootings

> These magazines are devastating and need to be banned.

Finally, you make a very common mistake when you assert "you can't yell 'fire' in a movie theater". That has been covered here by me, by others, and by prominent first amendment attorneys all over the map, but despite the common misconception, there's no law or regulation that prohibits you from yelling fire in a movie theater.

Nobody ever believes that, so please enjoy some citations:

* https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-ha...

* https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...

* http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2013/03/04/please-st...

> repeatedly called for Australian-style gun buybacks, which were mandatory, which are the same as confiscation.

They were mandatory, however gun owners with reasonable reasons (i.e. hunting, sport, recreation) were free to acquire a license to keep their guns (excluding military style weapons). You can currently acquire a semi-automatic rifle (under 10 rounds) with the proper licenses and reasons (farm worker, sport etc.)[1]

- There were no repercussions for illegal guns being handed in (someone handed in a rocket launcher).

- There were no laws preventing someone acquiring a license to keep their gun if they wanted (within the laws which were introduced).

- No police invaded homes to take weapons by force during the amnesty.

Australia's gun-amnesties/buybacks were not the same as confiscation.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia#Firearms...

> Finally, you make a very common mistake when you assert "you can't yell 'fire' in a movie theater".

I thought the 'mistake' would be assuming that this action is prohibited even in the event of a fire.

Now I question if it is assumed to apply unconditionally, even during a fire. And if so, what is the appropriate way to deal with such an event

So, _Schenck_ has largely been overturned on a number of occasions, but the following (untested) likely still holds as punishable (but not forbidden against through ante-hoc regulations):

* _Falsely_ shouting fire

* in a crowded theater

* for the purpose of imminently inciting harm to others

That is obviously what is meant by the idiom - surely you are aware of that? How are you not being disingenuous on this point?

To be fair, the thing that is most oft intended by the idiom is "look, if the cherished first amendment can be restricted, then so too can the second amendment".

It isn't a law, and where I say "might" in my follow-up, it should not be confused with "is" or "will". There are no laws that forbid you from exclaiming fire in a theater. People think there are because Oliver Wendell Holmes made a clumsy aside while explaining a bad decision that has since been overturned.

Either way, the real point to this is that a punishment for negligent use of one's rights (e.g., falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater for the purposes of causing harm to others) is still not remotely the same as banning free exercise of that right, or converting that right into a privilege through licensure, as is being suggested as rational compromises for the second amendment, predicated on a clumsy and wrong-headed interpretation on the first.

We might all prefer it if you had to obtain a license to speak in a theater, on the grounds that yelling fire in one might prove too dangerous a responsibility for average citizens, but I think most of us would agree that it would violate the first amendment quite heinously. The only way to imagine that equivalent restrictions are less heinous when applied to the second amendment is if one takes the second amendment less seriously as a "real" right, or to imagine that such restrictions are common on the first amendment. It isn't less real a right, and such restrictions are not common on the first, despite misuse of the aforementioned idiom.

Wow, just wow.

We started at submission about Google employees waving around a paper tiger petition, we proceeded to top ranked reminder to everyone of DARPA and how military funding is the One True Way, then on to crypto export controls, rolling onward into a gun control debate, conflating semi-automatic weapons with rocket launchers, and finally into yes, the meaning behind "fire in a crowded theater."

The comment section on HN is now second only to the comments from Yahoo news stories. Keep up the great work everyone.

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