Hacker News Reader

Comment by clon | Hacker News Reader

> She called Davidson on the house phone and told him that the hurricane was now a Category 3. He knew that already. She proposed the escape route to the south and a smooth sail on to San Juan. He rejected her suggestion.

I wonder if in the maritime world there is the equivalent of CRM (Cockpit Resource Management), as in aviation.

Too many lives were lost due to 1st officer never taking over command when the error in the commander's thinking had already become apparent or the entire aircraft was being flown, effectively, by a single infallible captain and not a team.

Lessons were learned decades ago and at least in a 1st world outfit I would like to believe that no 1st officer would hesitate to utter the words "I have control" when in such stress.

View on HN

There is: bridge resource management. It actually grew out of CRM. Section 2.7 of the NTSB report (linked elsewhere in this thread) gives an overview of it and discusses how it played a role in this incident. It's an interesting read and seems to be relatively in-depth.

Learned something today, will research it. Thanks!

The comments by the board members on pages 256-259 discuss this as well. The second statement is interesting in particular as it talks about the differences in crew hierarchy between aviation and maritime.

Reading through Section 2.7 of that report was a treat, thank you! (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...)

Excellent read thank you, that final section how the company struck off BRM (CRM) from the ships training prior was pretty damning.

Thank you for sharing. Sections 2.6 ("Captain's Decision-Making") and 2.7 are excellent case studies in leadership and authority -- especially the parts about "power distribution" and promoting a culture of open feedback.

The recommendations for the crew to "issue a direct command or to use a crew obligation statement — a statement in which the subordinate obligates the senior crewmember as part of the navigational team by using language such as 'we should' or 'our route'" is excellent. People who need to "manage up" at their jobs can start doing this today.

One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders. I'm wondering if the 1st officer similarly faced bad consequences for doing the right thing and taking command -- mutiny charges are still a thing, aren't they?

There's a movie that reviews that situation in a navy (nuclear submarine) context, it's called 'Crimson Tide'.

There’s an even older and probably more relevant (or at least similar) called “The Caine Mutiny.”

An lt takes command from the Captain during a typhoon due to the caltain’s actions/behavior and is subsequently tried for mutiny.

Not sure why you’re being downvoted, Jacques. We’ve been in a couple spats here but I’ve always respected your thoughts and opinion. Have (yet another) upvote :).

I suspect my comments in the thread about the Google shooting gained me a fresh batch of enemies.

If you look at the numbers for this site, these days, HN is too popular for it's own good, and it's getting really noisy.

On the front page right now, there are lots of garbage articles, with 500+ upvotes and comments, and any one of them handily enables new downvoters.

Way more people can downvote now, than ever before, and users relish new power. Having a respectful honor system, and some voting ring detection is great, but the truth is, there are a lot more shitty people on this site. What to do about that?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but would you mind posting that from your non-greenbean account? I won't downvote you! It's just fake internet points anyway; why worry? I get downvoted every day I post. (Not every item I post.) Sometimes there is a lesson to be learned, sometimes there isn't.

That seemed like irresponsible speculation on Vanity Fair's part to me.

The root cause was a captain who mistakenly reacted off of 12 hour old data and ignored another source of data that contradicted it. Pretty surprising given the lengths the article goes through to impress upon the reader how "safety conscious" he was.

It is speculation, but it is also relevant. Commercial shipping may be uniquely prone to accidents caused by profit-driven decisions, as discussed in Perrow's Normal Accidents book.

The article probably emphasises the captain's safety consciousnes to prevent people from "blaming the operator", which is an instinctual and often wrong conclusion to jump to.

The NTSB report says: Performance. The chief mate's performance evaluations were consistently positive. His evaluation from June 2015 stated that he was “passionate” about his work and “an excellent instructor for the inexperienced.”

In this case the blame is deserved though. The Coast Guard's report places the blame fully on the captain.

I don't believe it does place the blame fully on the captain, where did you see that?

The report conclusions mention several events and dozens of contributing factors.

If you want to think in terms of blame, which is not helpful to avoid future accidents nor for nurturing a safety culture, the report "blames" the ship owner, captain, crew, National Hurricane Center and the coast guard...

Some actions of the captain were a contributing factor, notably bridge resource management/communication.

"Coast Guard investigators virtually placed all of the blame on Michael Davidson, the El Faro's captain. Davidson underestimated the strength of the storm and the ship's ability to ride it out. He did not take enough measures to evade the storm, even though most of his crew raised concerns about the increase in strength of the storm. Investigators had stated that if Davidson had survived the storm, his actions would have been grounds for the Coast Guard to revoke his captain's license."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_El_Faro#US_Coast_Guard

"One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders."

This is just one serious problem in the maritime industry that I have first-hand knowledge of.

I loved sailing, but I don't do it any more because it's not the work that's dangerous, it's the other people.

Tell me about it. You'd think the ocean is a big enough place to avoid accidents, but somehow 16 year olds skippering their parents boats find their way into the path of my Whaler while I quietly sit fishing.

Also from the world of aviation, seems the captain had developed a classic case of get-there-itis. The symptoms are there, the prognosis is never good.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com