Domestic manipulation is fine; that’s discussion. Foreign subterfuge is not. That’s what Cambridge Analytica did [1].
[1] http://www.chicagotribune.com/g00/news/nationworld/ct-cambri...
[1] http://www.chicagotribune.com/g00/news/nationworld/ct-cambri...
Why is foreign influence bad but domestic influence OK? American foreign policy has huge effects on the rest of the world. Shouldn't they have a say? How about undocumented immigrants living in the country?
Obviously not. Foreign countries are always going to act in their own interest. They are not interested in the stability or longterm prosperity of other nations, usually quite the opposite.
Those affected by foreign policy have other ways of exerting influence (tariffs, their own policies, immigration policies, etc) they don't get to alter my day to day life. Freedom of the press and Freedom of speech in the US is a critical and fundamental right - China doesn't get to throw money at shutting those down because they're inconvenient to Chinese policy.
Complaining primarily about Russia's interference in our 2016 election is willful blindness. Every country tries to influence every other country's elections. Russia (if the allegations are true) may have done it better this time, or used methods that were more detectable, and got more attention because of how shocking the election turned out.
At least some of what Russia (allegedly, I'm unconvinced whether it was Russia or Seth Rich like Assange implied) leaked (the hacked DNC emails) was really important political information that the people had a right to know. Do you think the DNC had a right to keep private their Hillary favoritism and primary rigging? I don't care if Russia leaked it, Seth Rich leaked it, or some Tuvalu aborigines leaked it. Russian and other countries' intelligence agencies hack everything they can; that doesn't mean they're the source of a particular leak.
Yes? As a general rule, private organizations should generally be free to keep their private emails sent about privately held preferences and gatherings in private hands.
The DNC is not a government agency or body. They're not subject to FOIL. They didn't "rig" the primaries unless you enormously stretch the definition of "rigging".
If we have a right to see the DNC's emails, we have a similar right to see the RNC's. Doesn't take much wondering to tell if they expressed private feelings about Trump there - they were publicly telling Trump to drop out.
To review, the U.S. election system for presidents is single-winner, which game-theoretically pushes the general election toward a two-candidate race. Those two dominant candidates are selected by "private" political organizations called the DNC and RNC.
Was it legal for them to do what they did? I guess so, but I'm not a lawyer much less an election law lawyer. Does a system in which the DNC can secretly (until it gets leaked) show favoritism still represent democracy of any kind? I don't think so. It's cronyism or oligarchy or something more akin to that than to representative democracy.
So in the Democratic primary we had the DNC (legally, presumably) influencing primary voters to favor Hillary. In the general election, we had Russia, to some extent, influencing voters to favor Trump (or at least hate Hillary enough to stay home). Everyone goes through the roof that a small group of people from another country would influence the general election, but little to no concern domestically that a tiny group of people were influencing the Dem presidential primary results.
If you would prefer the term "influence" instead of "rig" in reference to what the DNC did for Hillary vs Bernie, I understand that. But none less than the NYTimes declared (via an editorial by Krugman) that Russia "rigged" the 2016 election when what they really mean is that Russia appeared to have influenced voters, which is the same as what the DNC did to Democratic Party primary voters.
If the RNC secretly did the same thing, I'd be complaining about them too, but there's a lack of evidence that they did, and even if they tried, it wasn't successful. As you pointed out, there were some public efforts to bias (against Trump), but they were too incompetent to be successful.
The RNC and DNC are organizations intended to help their parties' voters pick among several primary candidates. If the organizations' leadership is not neutral (or doesn't try hard to be neutral) but pretends to be, primary voters risk being seriously misled. As I said before, the whole notion that such a system has anything to do with democracy is a sham. So this past election was a sham candidate vs an awful candidate who was at least honestly selected by general party sentiment.
Sure. They're ultimately tasked with winning elections. If a neo-Nazi ran for the party's presidential ticket, I don't think anyone would question their right to oppose that.
Sanders was no neo-Nazi (clearly!), but I'm not shocked the Democratic Party leadership flinched internally at the prospect of a non-Democrat jumping into the race and affecting the chances of the most viable candidate in the general election.
> If the RNC did the same thing I'd be complaining about them too, but they didn't in this last election.
They absolutely did the same thing. I have 100% certainty that a leak of the RNC's emails would show similar internal efforts to prevent a Trump candidacy.
> The RNC and DNC are organizations intended to help their parties' voters pick among several primary candidates. That they failed at it doesn't change the fact that they publicly expressed the preferences you're aghast at the Democrats expressing internally.
That's one of their responsibilities. They also have, per their bylaws, responsibilities to win elections for the benefit of their respective parties and their values.
So you don't care if a small number of party leaders influence primaries for the good of "democracy" or "the party"?
You think it's wrong for that information about secret DNC bias to get leaked, or it's only wrong if it's leaked by a foreign party? How do you know Putin leaked it rather than Seth Rich?
What you're outlining for the role of political parties seems to be that they should strongly bias and rubber-stamp frontrunner candidates who are then rubber-stamped by primary voters who have been persuaded by bias and propaganda from the party leaders during the primary campaigns.
I don't know what the word democracy means anymore if you think that conforms to its definition.
Even having primaries be anything other than overtly symbolic is a relatively recent feature of the system, for both parties.
The norm has long been that you vote with your membership: you join the party whose leaders you trust most to serve your interests, and then (notionally) those leaders make decisions that they expect will retain and attract members.
The RNC was accused of it just like the DNC, the difference is a foreign intelligence operation didn't hack and leak RNC emails.
Well, that and that the RNC’s system to assure that they don’t have to get hands on in supporting the establishment candidate because of the way delegates selection is stacked to give the early leader (who the rule writers assumed would be the establishment favorite) an artificial air of supermajority support, to drive media coverage in a way which will collapse support for other candidates backfired because even with insider influence the early establishment candidates couldn't get public traction, leaving Trump to reap the benefits designed to go to the establishment candidate.)
Can you point me to this article? I'm fairly certain I don't remember them saying the election was "rigged".
Regardless of whether the DNC is a private or public entity, it misrepresented its process to voters. Most voters assumed that the DNC was a neutral third-party arbiter that existed to reflect the will of the voters. It is not naive to assume that your vote means something, even in the primaries. Well, it didn't used to be naive. The DNC destroyed the illusion of choice and wants to restore it by blaming a foreign power.
What actions are we okay with the DNC taking and hiding from voters? Would we want to know if the DNC was using foreign funding to push Trump as the Republican nominee? It doesn't sound illegal, but it isn't honest.
Voters who appreciated seeing the DNC emails would agree that it would be nice to see RNC emails as well. Is anyone is arguing against that?
I don't see how Russia commenting or propagandizing in any way restricts freedom of the press or freedom of speech.
Personally, if it happens to my country, I want us to defend and fight against it, not try to play the both-sides whataboutism game. The Internet didn't break the nationstate like we thought it would.
One activity in question involves a single agent promoting both sides of a debate [1] with the intent of sowing discord.
[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intellig...
The nice thing about a concrete example is it collapses hypotheticals.
Cambridge Analytica illegally deployed foreign workers to American campaigns [1], used improperly—perhaps illegally [2]—obtained data to target voters with messages that were at times conflicting and generally designed to inflame disagreement. CA took active measures to conceal they were behind these messages and takes active measures to conceal its own backers. Its (now former) CEO is on tape [3] attempting to sell services which violate the FCPA [4].
We need a solution that preserves Internet freedoms while protecting against this.
[1] http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-cambridge-...
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act
[3] https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/20/politics/alexander-nix-cambri...
[4] https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-pract...
"Cambridge Analytica illegally deployed foreign workers to American campaigns"
Why is it (or should it be) wrong for a non-US-citizen to advise members of a US campaign?
You're highlighting the not-wrong parts of the illegal stuff and will next highlight the not-illegal parts of the wrong stuff. CA did things that were wrong and illegal, but not everything they did was both.
To ensure the U.S. government is serving the interests of Americans.
It also promotes accountability. Take the trolls who provoked both sides of a debate into hostility [1]. That's not healthy for our democracy. But the FEC will have limited success going after the instigators. What they can do is tell American social media companies: "if you get paid to show advertising which, if on TV would have to carry a 'paid for by XYZ' disclaimer, then you have to get that information too."
Note that the FEC does not consider foreigners "who are...lawfully admitted for permanent residence" to be "foreign nationals."
Note further that nothing prevents e.g. the Russian embassy from taking out a full-page ad in a newspaper or buying advertisements promoting their views. They just have to say "this was paid for by the Russian Federation."
[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intellig...
A little silly: Consider the examples. E.g., Russia took out facebook ads raising awareness about police brutality in the US. This is clearly "provoking both sides into hostility," but so what? Does it really matter that it's (scary voice) Russia doing it?
The second reason I think it's silly is it's just impossible to trace influence, ultimately. How many political commentators have gigs at think tanks that are ultimately funded by foreign governments? Lots! Or what about people that have close family members living in other countries? Etc.
Ultimately, I think people just need to evaluate arguments on the merits, and also be sophisticated about considering all possible sources and motivations for any given argument they are seeing.
Microtargeting voters is not illegal. It needs oversight, in the way campaign ads have to follow certain rules, but if the Russian Embassy bought political ads on Facebook, I think that would be fine.
There is a public interest in knowing who says what in a political discussion. This is why, whether it's a campaign or a PAC or a foreign government, political ads come with "paid for by XYZ" disclaimers. Cambridge Analytica deliberately skirted those rules to do what they were written to prevent.
There is also public interest in ensuring foreigners pushing political agendas do so in good faith. Promoting both sides of a debate, with the intention of sparking conflict, for example, is acting in bad faith [1]. Cambridge Analytica broke these rules [2]. In doing so, they enabled--deliberately or negligently--what those rules were written to prevent.
The line between "using" and "manipulating" any medium comes down to legality and intent. There are grey areas in those delineations. Cambridge Analytica jumped over the ambiguity into clear illegality, wanton disregard and in-your-face bad-faith behaviour [3]. They did so by taking advantage of Facebook's comercially-incentivised negligence and our election oversight system's blind spot in respect of online ads.
[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-trolls-senate-intellig...
[2] http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-cambridge-...
[3] https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/20/politics/alexander-nix-cambri...
Definitely not if they were political ads for a US election. It is illegal for foreign nationals without permanent resident status to participate in election campaign activities in that manner[1].
FWIW, I'd say the same about domestic campaigning - you should be able to track it back to its source.
Pretty sure everyone in the entire world with internet access chimed in at some point on the US's last election. I doubt many people looked into the country of origin of a tweet before deciding on whether or not to be influenced by it.
As an aside, I kind of appreciate how in the past, mostly before WW2, governments would have agencies such as "Ministry of Propaganda", or "Department of War". Now we use doublespeak terms ("Public Affairs", "Defense") to calm the masses, even though they mean the same thing.
> Social influence is not necessarily negative. For example, doctors can try to persuade patients to change unhealthy habits. Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject it, and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation
I would say that persuasion based on facts is perfectly fine. It’s the deceit that was particularly troublesome last election. And by using targeted social media campaigns derived/aided by private data and possibly behavioural and psychological profiles, people were easily manipulated for the purpose of another nation state. The foreign influence aspect is a real challenge for democracy and sovereignty
This is just using different terms to say the same thing. Facts can and often are used to manipulate, by framing and context, and by what is left out. Opinion, supposition, and FUD are also commonly used to persuade. That people usually believe what they are saying does not mean their opinions were not originally based on deceitful or self-serving propaganda.
> last election.
This has been going on since politics existed (ie. civilization).
Foreign influence is another issue. It is however deceitful to suggest that the issues foreigners (Russians) are accused of inflaming were domestically non-issues, non-controversial, or not-inflammatory before their interjection.
Then say it as yourself. Nobody gets mad at Sweden or Israel for holding events, taking out ads or lobbying lawmakers. The issue is Cambridge Analytica lying about who they are. That’s why one is legal and the other is illegal.
But when it comes to people influencing people, especially over the internet, I doubt very many knew or cared of the country of origin an opinion/idea/piece of "information" came from if it jived with them. Much less whether the identity of the poster was falsified.
Indeed with the anonymity provided by the internet, no nationality whatsoever, foreign or domestic, need be provided.