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Comment by sjwright | Hacker News Reader

There are two major philosophical differences between Google and Apple which led to this outcome.

The first is the difference in business model, i.e. advertising versus whole-product.

The second is that Google starts with a permissive ecosystem mindset and locks stuff down as they go along; Apple starts with a conservative mindset and opens stuff up as they go along. Neither approach is inherently better than the other—the competing platforms are converging towards equilibrium—but Apple's approach does prove to have the upper hand when it comes to consumer privacy.

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The amusing thing is how much flack Apple received early on for their closed product approach.

It's arguable that Google traded heavily on the relative freedom of the Android platform, and sucked in a lot of early adopter / tinkerer types on the promise of openness. Kind of ironic that for most people, most of the time, the open source nature of Android is now barely a historical footnote.

> barely a historical footnote.

Certainly not for those tinkerer types. Often it's the tinkerer types who are concerned about privacy, and it's those types who install Copperhead OS or XPrivacy, which allows you to deny exactly this kind of thing. Not only that, but it'll let you block all those smaller ways of spying - like unique device IDs being phoned home to 6 different ad, analytics and crash handling services that the silly game you just installed uses.

It's hard for me to imagine using a phone on which I see ads, especially on YouTube, can't background apps like SSH clients, syncthing, even direct IMAP and SIP connections used to be a struggle for people on iOS (still may be?) or run app that Google/Apple have decided are evil piracy tools, like a manga reader or a torrent client manager and search tool. I have friends who even run emulators and use memory editors to cheat at mobile games regularly on their phones... very, very different models. Android is just a lot more flexible for a tinkerer to this day. All this is possible without exploits on most devices, allowed and accepted by many manufacturers.

There's this weird attitude on HN I see frequently where it seems like everything has to be "for the masses" for it to be of any value - tinkering by definition is not for the masses. Android devices probably shouldn't be for the masses, but for tinkerers, they really do pack a respectable punch in my opinion.

> Certainly not for those tinkerer types.

Hence why I said most.

But even then I think you're still massively overstating it. 6-10 years ago nearly everyone in my circle of geeky friends and colleagues had a root-kitted Android (Cyanogenmod or similar) or a jailbroken iPhone. Today that number is exactly zero.

Thankfully we have traditional computers to tinker with, but I feel bad for people who don't have one and use iPad instead.

That's the myopia of a technologist.

I know many older people for whom an iPad is the first "computer" they've ever owned, and for them it's a lifeline to grandchildren and community. These are people who were never going to learn MacOS or Windows.

These people don't need your pity.

I was a bit of an outlier in that I generally appreciated Apple's walled garden approach because it severely limited the amount of crapware/malware in the app store.

Plus - certainly 5-6 years ago - because of that whole product attitude, when you used an iPhone it simply felt a lot more polished than contemporary Android devices: I haven't really used Android enough recently to comment on whether or not that's still the case.

True, it's a bit of a fight to go full open source on android, but in recent months this got easier. Many apps that replace the whole google apps suite have been updated to be a great alternative, sometimes better.

Also F-Droid got a nice look and functionality now, don't miss the Play store a bit.

In case someone does, there is the "yalp-app", google play backwards. It downloads apks from the play store with a fake account.

Android phones are the PCs of smartphones -- you can configure them to do anything you want, but get one piece of hostile software on there and you're fucked.

At least PCs get updates, not the one about a specific price range.

For stock releases, yes, a rigorously vetted walled garden with no sideloading is going to provide greater default protection than an open platform, but consumers also lose the ability to shape the extent to which they manage their own devices.

As far back as 2012 I used an Android CFW that sandboxed apps and returned empty values for whichever permissions were specified. And prior to that, it used 7.x at-will permissions. Since it was rooted, I could set the hosts file to block known malware domains and social media tracking anf load modules or patch issues instead of hoping it would be in a future update, if ever.

Until buying a Pixel (on Android 7.1.2-8.1), I'd never bothered with an OEM spin or stock builds, but it's been... okay. It's a shame it took half a decade for privacy options to catch up to the level of custom projects, and it's still primarily for device protection, but the situation isn't the sieve it once was with locked bootloaders and the over-broad support emphasis of earlier days.

> but consumers also lose the ability to shape the extent to which they manage their own devices.

Which is only useful for the consumers who have the skill, the depth of knowledge and who maintain that knowledge to keep it up-to-date. Maybe one percent of users. Probably fewer.

This is why most people outsource this stuff to third parties, just like we outsource the pasteurisation of milk and the maintenance of sewerage systems.

The typical analogy is the age-old argument about whether consumers should be expected to know how their car works. Maybe they should but that's beside the point—they don't. Insisting that they should is irrelevant. Most people don't know what brake fluid does and they won't care if you explain it to them.

Not to sound too Monty Python, but shouldn't they have at least the right to know these things?

And your example proves the point; because others cared to become the third-party, we have projects like LineageOS for smartphones and tablets. However, they could not have if Google had locked its OS down or restricted it to certain hardware.

Just because most people only want to know the time doesn't mean no one but clock makers should have the right to understand how clocks work.

I just don’t agree with your premise (because you don’t need to know how a Seiko watch works to learn how watches work) or your conclusion (because in the absence of AOSP, projects like Firefox OS might well have been successful).

What has Apple opened up along the way? To me it seems like they just started with permissions to slightly fewer things than Android and restricted access away along the way. Both gave developers access to MAC addresses early on, for example. Apple also stopped allowing developers to identify other apps installed using canOpenURL but AFAIK it's still technically a public API.

When the iPhone first came out you had to jailbreak it if you wanted to install third party apps.

I always got the feeling that had more to do with shipping at MVP stage rather than something they weren't always planning to do.

> What has Apple opened up along the way?

A few highlights:

iPhone OS 2 — Native apps.

iPhone OS 3 — Apps can now connect to external accessories through serial I/O or bluetooth. Apple also began permitting turn-by-turn navigation and push notifications. Apps can now access music library. Lots of new APIs.

iOS 4 — Apps can now perform limited tasks in the background with multitasking. Lots of new APIs.

iOS 7 — Multitasking is liberated further. Apps can even send audio streams to other apps. Apps can also run JavaScript directly, allowing app scripting for the first time. Lots of new APIs.

iOS 8 — Developers can now create and sell third-party keyboards. Apps can now use Touch ID for authentication; have deeper access to camera exposure settings; register extensions for sharing and notification centre. Lots of new APIs.

iOS 10 — New APIs let VoIP apps do stuff that used to be exclusive to the native dialler. Some apps can now hook into Siri. Lots of new APIs.

More recently, Apple has relaxed its stance on apps executing (interpreted) code that is downloaded from the internet.

I think it's quite obvious that Apple's approach is better. What exactly was the net gain for Android users by not being able to block permissions until 5.0?

Not to mention the Android OS itself just being a data mining platform for Google's ecosystem of products.

It's quite obviously better in terms of data privacy.

I don't use Android myself, but I'm not going to say their approach doesn't have any upsides. For example, I still can't pick a third party iOS app to be my default email client.

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