This was never the case in Europe, where if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. The target at university always was a Master's degree. The PhD, something you did for your mother, or if you wanted to pursue an academic career.
What? This is definitely not true in Germany, at least not anymore. Unless you want to go into research or teaching, it's commonplace for graduates to start working right away.
I think a much bigger problem that contributes to the devaluation of university degrees is the fact that students that don't really need a degree still get pushed to attend university - and that's definitely because of current recruiting practices where you really have no chance without at least a Bachelor's. I've met so many people in university who only really wanted to code and got no use out of learning things like automata theory, complexity, higher mathematics. Not saying it isn't important to learn these things, but you gotta differentiate between coders and computer scientists. And if coder positions require a computer science degree, well... Of course you're going to end up devaluing those degrees.
Edit: Adding to this, I attended university for 4 years before switching to a more practice-oriented college. In those 4 years I had one programming lecture (which only introduced three different language paradigms and didn't go into depth) and a system programming lab (admittedly, this was really cool). Everything else was mostly theoretical computer science and mathematics. Now, I chose this university because people told me of its good reputation and I felt like I had to attend a prestigeous school to get a good job, but it didn't really teach me any practical skills at all, so even if I had graduated I would've had a hard time landing that "good job" due to complete lack of experience.
I always have to explain that a Licentiate[0] is more akin to MS than Bachelor, which is a bummer on employment forms that don't expose it as option.
After Bologna, Portuguese universities started giving the option for former Licentiates to request their MS title, given the split into 3 + 2.
Which according to my knowledge also happens in other European countries where CS degrees used to be 5 years duration, before Bologna happened.
No, actually it's not. Germans are under this impression because it's considered equivalent inside Germany.
Looking at the contents of 3 years bachelor + 2 years MS, versus the contents of old Licentiate 5 years duration in Portugal, they are clearly equivalent in content.
Hence why after Bologna many universities basically renamed their Licentiate degree into something called Integrated MS, which means the students get a BS + MS paper at the end of those 5 years.
Also the reason why former Licentiates are allowed to basically acquire their MS title, by paying bureaucratic fees and in some cases presenting some kind of career report as thesis.
The actual program didn't change, just the diplomas you get in the end. Based on this, I'm comfortable saying that an MSc given these days is essentially the old 5 year degree.
I was studying physics in Germany right when the transition from 5-year diploma to 3+2 BSc+MSc happened. While most parts of the curriculum stayed the same, faculty took the opportunity to modernize the curriculum. For example, Computational Physics (an introductory programming course with a focus on numerical calculation methods and how to deal with precision-induced numerical errors) was upgraded from optional to mandatory, given that nearly all physicists have to write some code these days.
In CS, this means that you were taught courses ranging from basic Electrical Engineering all the way to Artificial Intelligence, including physics, algebra, calculus, signal processing, theory of computation, algorithms, databases, computer architecture, compilers, computer networks, robotics, etc.. That is, you got introductory-level courses on everything that makes "computer-stuff", and then there were a number of optional courses where you specialized.
I really don't think you can cover all that material in 3 years...
In hindsight, I don't think having a Master rather than a Bachelor influenced my job opportunities: but having a degree at all definitely did, at least for finding a job in established companies.
Most bachelor degrees are 7 semesters, diplomas were 8 semesters.
Ofthen they just cut out a practical semester and that's it.
In mathematics Diplom (Diplom-Mathematiker) was 9 semester; now BSc + MSc is 6 + 3 semesters.
In computer science Diplom (Diplom-Informatiker) was 10 semester: now BSc + MSc is 7 + 3 semesters.
Both for my university in Germany.
Do they have sources to back this kind of snooty claim up?
Anecdotally, the only time I’ve come across this attitidude is when individuals heavily-vested in academia are attempting to stake out the moral high ground.
I started university in 2007 and among ~180 people studying CS with me, majority continued with full-time master studies immediately, and most of the others did it part-time (either immediately or after 1-2 years break).
These days it's different, it becomes more common to either finish formal education with bachelor degree, take a long break or continue in another, related major. 10 years ago it wasn't the case.
If anything, it was the opposite, people I worked with would consider anything better than Bachelors in CS on a candidate’s CV (eg MS or PhD) as a signal that they wasted too much time in their life before starting with real work in the industry.
[edited for clarity]
I'm also in the UK, have an MSc (STEM subject), and FWIW have never come across this attitude.
Back in my first job (based on campus at CIT) they did prefer BSC's (with a first from the right uni, I think Harvard might just have made the list) for new recruits with the idea that they would do a masters /phd at the organisation.
So far no one (not recruiters nor employers) has so much as even asked me about my education. But I guess I have enough experience now that it really doesn't matter.
After I presented my BSc project my supervisor offered me support with PhD in computer vision and AI (area of my work and his specialisation). I had to refuse as during my studies tuition fees for PhD went up over 9x times (and for BSc almost 11x). On my first year I worked with people who paid ~£300 per academic year, on my final year I worked with others who paid almost £10.000 per year. "Something" went wrong.
Also, education itself is much less a business here than in the US.
In countries where job market can be tough, such as Southern Europe or Poland - where I'm from, and where I've observed this first-hand (in Italy, too) - going to uni is a common way of deferring the unpleasant clash with economic reality.
It provides an excellent "alibi" for a few years' worth extension of parents' financial support. "We value education in and of itself" attitude certainly comes in handy ;)
You are simplifying it a tad bit too much.
In Italy Univesity course is not "free", it has a low cost (taxes and fees + books), but - unless you (with your parents) already live in the city where the university is, there are transfer/lodgement costs.
There was an article just the other day on the Corriere della Sera about the situation, I assume you can read Italian, otherwise it is not that bad via Google translate:
http://www.corriere.it/dataroom-milena-gabanelli/quanto-cost...
And - with the exception of very few specific and "technical" courses the issue is that once you have spent these 15.000-45.000 Euro you are not going to receive - if you find a job - an increased wage when compared to someone without a degree or with an undergraduate degree.
Of course the main underlying reason is that there is a high unemployment rate, and "on the market" an "average" degree has not much increased value.
Possibly something similar happens for CS, firms have "basic" CS degree as a requirement but do not value much an additional Master.
OK, so not quite free. I stand corrected, thanks :) In Poland anyway there's no tuition fee - at public universities, of course.
> unless you (with your parents) already live in the city where the university is, there are transfer/lodgement costs.
I should think this goes without saying... No free lunches for students, either ;)
To give you a rough approximation, for taxes there is a complex method of calculation, depending on the combined income of the family, loosely between 700 and 2,700 Euro per year, and the books may be anything between 300 and 1,000 Euro per year.
At my current university in the Boston area, for example, yearly tuition is around ~$50,000 USD, and that doesn't even include room & board; I'm paying an additional $1,400 per month for a private room in a 2bed/1bath.
With that in mind, the original comment definitely still offers a perspective I didn't consider before in terms of the cost difference in relation to the arguments in this thread.
What you point out as an issue, I see as a sign we have reached a good point in human history. (a good point, but not the end, of course issues exists, but as long as we don't mark them as "Working as intended" or "WONTFIX"...)
I'm an utopian of course. And of course someone can, and will, have a different opinion.
Hell, when I was studying for a masters, I felt that it was essentially a half-way course towards getting someone ready for a career in academia. Others also used it as a way to get a good university name on their CV so big companies would look at their applications.
I'll throw in my 2 cents - this is not true at all for Estonia for example. It might be in some fields of study that I'm not familiar with but definitely not in CS.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/83...
The MPhil/MEng are absolutely real qualifications, requiring an additional year's study and a substantial research project.
If people are using it to be misleading, that isn't really Cambridge's problem -- anywhere it matters, people can ask for proof (the transcript), and there is a fair chance the person is being misleading in other ways as well.
[1] Example BA certificate: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VTWUb.png All undergraduate degrees are the Bachelor of Arts, regardless of subject (except Law, which is the LL.B.).
This was never my impression during my university years, nor in working life (both technical and managerial).
It is safe to say that the systems are a bit incomparable, since a 3 year degree in the states would be just as comparable to an associate’s degree.
Anyway, I've never had my lack of a Master's come up in Europe. Maybe it's because I'm American.