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Comment by vinhboy | Hacker News Reader

This has been said many times, but it feels like all the manufacturers colluded to make EV cars extremely ugly and undesirable. Prime example being the BMW i3.

Of all the nice looking cars they have in their line up, one has to wonder why they went with an i3.

Put that same capability in a 3-series and it would have been a different story.

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I'm not sure if you know how innovative the BMW i3 is. They decided to go for an entirely different manufacturing process using Carbon Fibre instead of traditional steel stamping and it's entire supply chain is built on renewable energy. That's a big commitment on BMWs part. Alas, the market didn't think of it the same way. The i3 might not be a looker but it's probably one of the most innovative cars ever produced in recent history. Horace of Asymco fame did an entire series on the i3 in his Asymcar podcast.

> Alas, the market didn't think of it the same way. The i3 might not be a looker

...from an American perspective. The i3 doesn't sell much in the US, but is I think the second highest selling EV in Europe at the moment, people here apparently don't have any problem with the way it looks.

It's also super comfortable inside, compared to the Leaf or the Bolt.

In Copenhagen it's the only DriveNow car available, and I must admit that although I am a petrolhead, the i3 grew on me.

What might look silly from the outside is an unparalleled experience in accelleration on the inside. Only Tesla's, motorcycles and proper sport cars can match the 0-50 km/h (which is everything you care about in a city commute).

Quite sure e-Golf, Leaf, the electric Kia all a good match.

Sounds more like a vanity project, than a real commercially competitive product.

It’s a learning project.

You're interpreting the language of a comment that itself is a subjective interpretation. Why not go straight to the source? Have you done any analysis of what makes for a 'real commercially competitive product'?

They have also released AMAZING videos showing the entire production process. If you are at all interesting in manufacturing, they're worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt1k3BLN7pw

It's ugly. It looks like a prop from Tron, and that movie was a flop.

Cannibalizing your existing products is a hard sell in an established organization. It's why businesses like Tesla are able to innovate more rapidly. They have no internal combustion product to compete with, and they don't have to save anything for the swim back (succeed or die).

EDIT: This isn't restricted to just the auto industry. Consider the need for Lockheed to create their Skunk Works team [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works

Gattaca reference? :)

Good catch :)

I don't see the similarity to the Skunk Works. Lockheed developed the Skunk Works planes in secret because they were... secret planes. The CIA doesn't make a habit of advertising our surveillance capabilities.

I see the Skunk Works planes as similar to the Corvette or Viper or Supra or i8 or any other top of the line car. It's something you think of in the back of your mind when you buy a Malibu, Neon, Corolla or 3 Series.

Maybe I am blind to some other part of Skunk Works history that you are referring to.

Apologies, I didn't make the connection as well as I would've liked.

You either build the innovator internally (Skunk Works), or you let your innovative competitors eat your lunch. Someone with less bureaucracy and incentive to maintain the status quo is going to innovate.

Ah I understand now. Skunk Works was what we in the tech business would call an "internal startup". Yes, I completely agree with that example.

They want them to look distinctive, because many buyers want everyone else to know they have an electric car. It's the same design strategy Toyota used with the Prius.

They end up looking like botched plastic surgery. Every EV outside Tesla is an abomination.

Both this comment and the parent are clearly false; the e-Golf looks just like a gas Golf.

Right, I'd recognize a tesla because it 1) a good looking car that draws my eye and 2) has no front grill.

Nothing fancy about it.

>This has been said many times, but it feels like all the manufacturers colluded to make EV cars extremely ugly and undesirable.

Yeah sure. VW takes their ICE models and equips them with an electric motor and battery. The reason why it doesn't sell is that it costs more than 2 times as much as the ICE model and EVs have an extremely low range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OczqMbWB63I

These things are getting better every year. The latest e-golf already has twice the range of the first model at the same pricetag. In 2020 the range of the egolf will probably reach more than 300 miles and it's cost will go down.

Battery costs apply to every car company equally except luxury car manufacturers. It may look like collusion from the eyes of a conspiracy theorist but it's simple economics: EVs are too expensive.

Tesla gets a free pass nothing is "too expensive" in the luxury market.

Teslas are not expensive considering the competition in its own price range.

The reason Tesla started with a luxury car is because they are a new company without the same resources and manufacturing experience as the already established car companies, so anything they built, it would be very expensive anyway.

There is really nothing preventing from the established car manufacturers from selling a cheap electric car, the reason they don't it's simply because their businesses is not geared towards selling non-ICE cars.

Electric cars are much more simpler than normal ICE cars. ICE cars are basically a bunch of controlled tiny explosions and those explosions need to be kept in check so there is a lot of nuances and engineering aspects that can simply be skipped on a electric car.

There are rumors of an all-electric 3 series. I assume the i3 drivetrain would not have been feasible inside a 3 series and scaling it up would have made the 3 far too expensive to be practical.

The i3 is a BMW Prius essentially. Think of it like a modern Isetta. In that context I think it actually looks very nice. At least it doesn't have love handles.

I quite like the i3 and apart from the backup engine it is a remarkably advanced car.

I've had 2 Nissan LEAF so far and I don't agree that all EVs are "ugly and undesireable". But I do agree that the i3 looks a lot more like a flashy concept car than a production design.

The i8 was released the same year as the i3. Is that ugly or undesirable?

RRP: From £112,000

That's pretty undesirable.

And also not fully electric, so there are three times as many things that could break.

Undesirable because of the price.

i8 is a hybrid car with a very small electric range and small cargo space.

I don't think the i3 is ugly and I wouldn't mind having one if I could aford it.

I think it looks ugly-handsome. The looks have actually grown on me.

I've been checking out the off-lease used ones. In my area, they've been selling for $15k-$20k USD (years: 2014-2015).

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/search/sss?sort=date&query=bm...

https://www.carvana.com/search?SortBy=LowestPrice&models=fr&...

You can get i3s surprisingly cheap. Problem is they're older and have pretty poor range. But if that doesn't matter to you, way cheaper than many new low-end cars.

Examples:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtm...

What puts me off are the narrow wheels. I know they are necessary but they give the car an almost comical look.

Apparently they fixed the design a bit, previously (at least here in Austria) you couldn't order one without the fugly blue lining in addition to the 2 main colors.

I don't disagree that so many of the EV's are extremely ugly and undesirable, but don't you think part of that is the inherent limitations of energy efficiency on these vehicles? A lot of it comes down to aerodynamic efficiency for something like a Tesla or Leaf or Bolt. The more aerodynamically efficient you are, the longer your range, thus limiting the range anxiety slightly. Some companies handle this gracefully, like Tesla.

Whereas, I feel something like the Prius, Volt, Bolt, Leaf, or i3 deals with the aerodynamics/style poorly. On top of that, these cars may be made to cater to some early-adopter/green person market subgroup. Maybe those traditional makers do not foresee the EV as the top choice, but as a niche and limited scale product?

On top of all that, lithium battery packs for EVs are expensive currently, look at all the problems Tesla has been having making theirs over the years. Once the price drops, I think automakers will be able to make less compromises elsewhere, getting better looks, performance, and features at the expense of pure efficiency.

I've owned a leaf for some time as the family second car. Except for long trips, it's the one car we always prefer. Any short drive will be done in the leaf (unless someone's already taken it).

Its easily the best car I've owned because it's reliable, cheap to operate, dead quiet, and has a nice amount of get-up-and-go.

So no, the current crop of EVs are not undesirable. They may not meet everyone's needs (e.g., in rural Idaho where the nearest town is 40 miles away). But if they do meet your needs, the current set is great.

Why would they re-engineer the the 3-series platform around an electrical drivetrain and make it look exactly the same?

Besides costing an inordinate amount of money, if they did it'd be completely anonymous and if it turned out not so great compared to a standard 3-series (handling, weight, performance) it would tarnish the entire line-up.

The Audi a3 e-tron looks like any other "normal" Audi

And the VW e-Golf looks like a 'normal' Golf.

That's true, and is a good choice if you ask me, but that's an exception, rather than the norm.

Isn't A3 e-Tron a plug-in, not a pure EV?

It is pretty nice to drive though.

honestly I think that the current generation of gasoline-powered cars are the ugliest that have ever been made

porsche mission-E will increase the standard whenever it comes out

I love both the i3 and i8 and would love to own both.

I imagine one factor in not putting i3 guts in a 3 series is that the i3 is about 2/3 the size and weight of an F30.

First-gen Leaf was horrid, but this newer one - I would drive one. Even the new Prius has roughly 12% more testosterone. I think they're learning.

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