Comment by oldandtired | Hacker News Reader

Comment by oldandtired | Hacker News Reader

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Up front, I'm not an American of the USA variety.

I had a long argument with two Americans of the USA variety about tipping. The attitude they displayed about tipping was that it was "criminal" if a customer didn't tip. My argument was that, since I was NOT a party to the employment agreement between business and employee, I had no responsibility to make up any shortfall between minimum wage and what the business was paying the employee.

It was interesting that they felt very strongly that even though you, as a customer, were not part of the the business/employee employment agreement, you still had a moral obligation to ensure that the employees got their due. They could not understand that the employee was a representative of the business and that the charges for service (of whatever kind) to the customer were set by the business by their prices. Any other charges had to be up front (and not called gratuities).

The Americans of the USA variety do not seem to understand that a gratuity is a freely offered gift on the part of the person giving it and it is in no way a requirement to be given. Otherwise, it is not a gratuity.

It seems to me that the attitude towards tipping in the USA makes it one of the tenth world countries where the society has no concept of an employer paying an employee a fair wage for the work being done.

Now, I don't have a problem with tipping (at my discretion) for above and beyond the call of duty service. However, for normal service being provided by a business, it is not appropriate for that business and employees to have an expectation that I make up any shortfall in living wages agreed between business and employee.

Nobody cares what your philosophical objection to tipping is. Functionally, there is no difference between you and a tightwad. The custom in the United States is to tip and the entire system is built around this expectation. Whether this meets your Platonic ideal of what a "gratuity" ought to be is really just completely irrelevant.

I'll go further: if you are visiting a different country you should make an effort to adhere to their basic norms of behavior. If I go to Japan and I see a shoe rack at the entryway of a building I am not going to traipse around the building in my shoes, even though nobody would think this behavior was unusual at home.

Also, if I were going to carry out your policy, I would not plan on visiting the same restaurant twice.

The problem here, is that you cannot see that your economy is based on establishing social injustice in all areas. Tipping, as a requirement because businesses don't pay their employees fairly, is to be treated as a moral obligation on someone who is not part of that process instead of a symptom of the basic injustice of the employer/employee relationship.

The only tightwads here are the businesses (and the employees who agree with their policies) who will not pay their employees a fair wage. Again, it is not the responsibility of the customer to ensure that a business survives and thrives. My question to you is "Are you a business owner who does this and are now trying to justify your actions?"

So, you are in agreement with the customs of other countries that women should be treated as second class citizens. You are espousing the treatment of employees by their employers as second class citizens. Your comparison to shoe removal in Japan is not even in the league of the social injustice attitude of not paying employees a fair wage.

In my country, tipping is not the custom as we have minimum wages to adhere to and if a business doesn't do this, those in charge are prosecuted.

Finally, I have no intention of ever visiting the USA. The way its citizens are treated is appalling enough, how it treats its visitors is even worse.

The idea is that if you don't get good service, you don't have to pay the tip. People whose incomes consist mainly of tips can make absolutely crazy amounts of money if they're good at their jobs and work hard. It's not for everyone but it works for some people. I wouldn't want to rely on being tipped out because I really don't have the personality for it.

Yes they can. It is a mindset that says you will treat your clientele (they are not just customers) with the absolute highest service and consideration. Most people cannot get to this point.

I don't have the personality to do this - I am considered to be far too blunt and abrasive. Yet, even though I am this, I consider it extremely important to treat my clients in a manner that says that I will solve their problems and actually do this. None of this work ever involved tips, it was a part of the service that I thought necessary.

Depending on what establishment they're working at, they may be quite far from "absolutely crazy" amounts of money.

No, I do not employ anyone. But I find this entire line of argument ridiculous. If someone wants to take a stand against tipping, they should make the sacrifice themselves by not eating out or going to restaurants that accept tips. What they should not do is go to an establishment where they know full well it's expected they'll tip and then refuse to do it. There's nothing honorable about a stand taken at someone else's expense. Stiffing your waiter does nothing to affect the systemic issue. It is, morally, the worst of all worlds, since you benefit from a system you describe as morally unjust and then refuse to participate in the expected palliative behavior.

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