Scientists suspect a link between the digestive system and problems with sleep | Hacker News Reader

Scientists suspect a link between the digestive system and problems with sleep

theguardian.com

159 pointsdevy68 comments

Towards the end, this article has a bunch of random suggestions you could try. I will caution readers that randomly trying stuff is about the worst way to do this.

If you want to self experiment, at a minimum, start a food diary. Record what you eat, when you eat it and track any health metrics you hope to change, whether sleep or something else. Establish a baseline for your current normal. Then try no more than one new thing every week or two to establish whether it does anything and, if so, what effect it seems to have.

Supplements are easier to work with at the start because it is the best way to try to isolate a factor. Dietary changes are much harder to understand because they always involve at least two changes: the new food you are adding and the discontinuation of whatever you used to eat. This always leaves the question "Is the new food helping? Or is the effect from removing the old food?"

That's before getting into the issue that most things you eat are complicated products containing multiple ingredients.

Exactly. It's further complicated by the fact that you really need to stick to a change for 2 months or more to notice any lasting effects.

From what I've seen with folks struggling with SIBO and Candida among other things was that cutting out sugar completely is probably the first and easiest place to start. No sugar at all, especially added sugar like you might find in a pasta sauce or other store-bought foods. Do that for 3 months straight and then eat something with sugar after that. You'll probably feel sick.

> cutting out sugar completely is probably the first and easiest place to start

This would represent a radical and complete change in diet in me and probably many other people. Since it would mean having to change from most cheap preprepared versions of common foods such as pasta sauce, like you mentioned, and even regular store-bought bread. These foods would either more considerably more expensive or time-intensive versions that don't include sugar, or replacing them with completely unlike foods.

It's in no way an "easy" change, and involves so much alteration that I doubt the significance of the "no sugar" component matters as much as the other collateral changes.

It's actually pretty easy, from both a time and financial commitment. Check out the sidebar links on https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/

If you don't want to do food prep, or you don't care for traditional high fat, moderate protein, low carb food options, you can get meal replacement shakes.

I prefer KetoChow, rotate through several different flavors, and it costs me ~$3/meal. It take 5-10 minutes of prep every 2-3 days (fill blender bottles with heavy whipping cream, ketochow powder, water, shake, toss in fridge). At 5' 6", I went from ~180 lbs to ~155 lbs. I don't need to work out, I maintain a healthy weight, and it's both affordable and non-time intensive.

Otherwise, cut breads, sugars, and liquid calories (regular soda & beer) out of your diet. I know people who eat primarily meats, cheeses, and green veggies, and they feel better than they ever have and quickly shed any excess fat without exercise.

KetoChow : basically just whey protein powder + some vitamins.

not significantly different from the bodybuilder protein shakes.

Tell me more about the bioavailability of your "+ vitamins", haha..

I agree that this is one of the best things you can do for yourself and your body. But it’s NOT easy. When eating out, sure, you can eat only meat and salad, but your friends will tease you with their high carb, sugary dishes. Or you end up at a conference where they don’t provide anything sugar free. Or you miss out at work where your colleagues take turns of cooking meals for everyone, making you feel a bit isolated.

It’s doable, but for social reasons, not easy.

Those are exceptions though. Most of the time you're preparing your own meals so it's easier.

Having the occasional sugary dish isn't going to ruin you. Anything you do to reduce sugar is better than doing nothing.

I‘m preparing maybe 50% of my own meals, don’t have time for more (2 kids, lots of appointments make me think twice to spend 15-30m on cooking).

> Since it would mean having to change from most cheap preprepared versions of common foods such as pasta sauce, like you mentioned, and even regular store-bought bread

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you can just start by reducing the added sugars, you can monitor any changes as you go along. If it seems helpful, you can then take more expensive/drastic measures.

I quit most sugar consumption a few years ago and can recommend it. I think it can also be beneficial to cut out all refined grains.

I reduced salt intake to a couple hundred milligrams per day last week, and I've barely noticed.

My main staples are lots of steamed vegetables, legumes, nuts and seeds, fruit, and a little fish and brown rice. I also do some calorie restriction, and water fasting for 2-5 days at a time. I cook almost everything from scratch and do meal prep a couple of times per week to have quick access to healthy foods. Two years in, and I'm 65 pounds lighter and feeling satisfied with the meals.

Great, I’d love to be in that position. You might want to reconsider brown rice though as it’s high in lectines, potentially causing damage to the gut lining and boosting autoimmune processes.

It's not that difficult to do if you focus on arranging your life around it. You can make a meal around raw vegetables (broccoli, cabbage) if there is nothing else healthy available while away from home. Most people think that they can't skip meals, but calorie restriction and water fasting can be healthy, so I don't worry if I go a day without much food.

I'm not sure if lectins are a problem to worry about. Most results that I see in Google are blogs by self-described health experts who are selling products and personal brands. There's also this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/going-lect...

I‘m not that versed in reading dietologic papers, but this review (or whatever you wanna call it) found some concerns that I‘d not dismiss immediately: http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

I don’t know if the WaPo is a good resource to debunk anything ;)

There may be some truth in there somewhere, but I'd like to see more studies.

The Washington Post article is written by a registered dietitian and there is some kind of editing process. The other link is self-published.

It says things like, "our ancestors just didn't evolve eating this type of food and our immune system can't handle it".

but humans have been eating grains for 100,000 years:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/humans-fea...

I'll keep an eye out for lectin research though. Thanks for the tip.

When you say "no sugar at all, especially added sugar", do you include natural sugar in fruit (and some vegetables)?

People who'll tell you to avoid some fruit and glowingly recommend you use supplements and ketomadness are sure to find themselves on the wrong track a few enlightened years from now.. don't follow their lead. Unless your goal is short-term weight loss dieting.

Yep, that's what I thought. What works best for me is keeping it as natural as possible most of the time - lots of fruits and vegs, legumes, full-grain bread, rice, sometimes a bit of meat. Pretty much balances out the once-in-a-blue-moon junk food or sweets binges. Never understood those insanely restrictive diets.

Cutting out dairy after I found out I'm lactose intolerant probably had the biggest effect on my quality of life - I'd urge anyone with digestive problems to get tested for it, it's a lot more prevalent than one would think.

Nah, fruits in their natural form are fine. Obviously, if you get most of your calories from sugary fruits, that's not the best, but it's not horrible either.

I meant purified sugar, like cane sugar or high-fructose corn syrup

How about being the most random and crazily modern scientifically suspecting you have in years: eat healthy and sleep better?

No daily coffee, no past-noon sugary snack, you know the other stuff. It's not brain science.

I can vouch for this.

I have always had sleep issues and over a long period of time and experimenting, found that I could calm the bacteria by giving them the right amount of fiber and simple proteins to work on, while avoiding sugar. If I deprive them of nutrients, they release something into my blood that increases anxiety. I have yet to figure out what this chemical is.

I used to think it was a blood sugar problem, but after a lot of testing, determined my blood sugar was fine. It turns out that 700 trillion life forms in the gut can wreak havoc if they are not taken care of.

And to think ... I said I don't want any pets. Turns out, I have 700 trillion of them.

Have you ruled out psychological factors (which are probably more likely)? It's impossible to know for sure without doing a placebo controlled trial on yourself.

I have found that removing HFCS from my diet (basically, fizzy pop) and eating probiotic yogurt seems to mostly cure my mild IBS. I still get IBS due to stress, but don't seem to get it during non-stressful daily life any more. Of course, it still could be the placebo effect...it's hard to know for sure. It never affected my sleep though. The only time I would get anxiety would be due to an imminent bowel movement.

With the HFCS, maybe you have moderate fructose malabsorption. Something like 30% of people do, and reducing or eliminating fructose helps them.

Yes, that's what I suspect. Even if it's just coincidence or placebo, fizzy pop is pretty bad for health on many counts.

I have actually done extensive controlled tests on myself for a couple decades now. That is not to say I have all the facts. There are still many unknowns that I would like to eventually figure out, I just simply don't have the tools at my disposal and functional lab tests are time consuming.

Why impute that to the bacteria? Sugar consumption supposedly facilitates tryptophan transport in the absence of other competing amino acids, which in turn boosts serotonin. That effect might not necessarily show up in an insulin/blood sugar imbalance.

That is a good point. I should add that I take about 75mg of each amino acid daily, plus extra l-glutamine a few hours later, as the abundance of l-glutamine blocks the absorption of the other amino acids. I do this early in the day, so more of them should have been processed by the evening time.

I have a similar experience. I thought it was blood sugar related as well and started dinner later. Through a food diary and experimentation. I found that I got best sleep results when I had a high fiber meal in the evening. Having a bowl of steel cut oatmeal in the evening has helped significantly. I have had good success with fibrous vegetable salads as well.

Morning oatmeal makes me intolerably sleepy. To think that that could be a feature, not a bug!

I normally avoid spouting off, but you seem like you're looking for an answer.

My reading indicates this is inflammation.

If the bacteria have nothing to eat, they eat you.

Inflammation is not always localized. It can move. And there's lot of indications that many neural problems (Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc) are inflammation-related.

What dietary changes can be made to reduce inflammation?

Less sugars, carbs, and highly glycemic foods such as wheat, rice, and corn will probably make the most difference. Basically avoid the sorts of things in a Little Debbie snack. It'll improve your skin a lot too!

Man, I love the Little Debbies snack cakes.

What other said plus L-Glutamine seems to be part of protecting the intestens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine

> On the level of tissue, glutamine plays a role in maintaining the normal integrity of the intestinal mucosa.,[12] but randomised trials provide no evidence of any benefit of nutritional supplementation.[12]

It's cheap to buy and try if it changes anything for you.

Antiinflammatory foods are well established online, certain fruits and things (cinnamon, figs, etc).

But the ones people miss a lot: yogurt (to empower good bacteria cultures), and cannabis (yes, marijuana).

Smoked cannabis or eaten cannabis?

Vaporized, or eaten, for healthiest results.

This is one of my theories as well. Lending to that theory is eating chicken soup which has enzymes with anti-inflammatory properties appear to also reduce the symptoms, but that also introduces many other factors.

But they are not your pets.. you are their pet.

Good point! I hope they take good care of me, since I am taking better care of them.

The article doesn't present any evidence at all, it's all just speculation.

It's true. If you get parasites from a pet like a cat you'll find yourself waking up at around 5 AM every day.

If you have a cat, you'll be waking up at 5 am every day.

This one references a study of modern day hunter gatherers and hunter farmers and found no modern day sleeping issues of insomnia or intermittent sleep with no mention of diet, only finding some signals with hours of daylight and temperature.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...

I am experiencing basically this right now. I am otherwise usually very healthy but have been having digestive problems for about 6 months. I realized last month that my newfound sleep problems seem to correlate with my stomach upsets. It was not obvious but after realizing it, I got some meds from my doctor for my stomach problem and my sleep problems went away as well!

My doctor is trying to play things safe and actually had me do a barium swallow test at the hospital this morning. This required me to not take the stomach medication for a few days and sure enough the sleep problems came back!

One thing that freaks me out is I normally have a very healthy and balanced diet. Still not sure where the stomach problems are coming from.

What medication were you prescribed?

have just taken a SIBO breath test. First hand observed the rise of breath hydrogen and methane. The biological machinery is that [bad overgrown] bacteria in the gut produce the gas with some of the gas making into the blood and after that into the lungs. That rise as usual coincided with small attack of coughing, running nose and a bit of anxiety and loss of concentration (was trying to work during the 3hr test). When it happens at night, it does makes falling to sleep harder. Anyway, passed the test with flying colors :) - hit 78ppm hydrogen and 29ppm methane levels (at 40 and 60 minute marks, ie. before colonic response, etc) where 20ppm of either alone is already enough for SIBO diagnosis. So it isn't just imagination.

I've been experimenting for the last couple of months and tried almost everything, what's suggested in the article. The best option for me was not eating for a couple of hours before the bedtime and no sports (even the relaxing yoga would keep me awake). Although it is individual and I have to agree with the food diary suggestions: it is the best way to find out how your body reacts to the specific foods.

Well, the "weight" on the parasympathetic nervous system is important for sleep and other low-arousal states so... uh... yeah? I guess?

I used to have trouble sleeping then I found the secret that works best for my body/brain. An hour on my bicycle riding up to the lake and I'll sleep like a log. The hard part is not falling asleep after my ride.

No exercise and I don't get good sleep and have stomach and anxiety problems. Go figure.

Can anyone recommend a good probiotic product?

There are tons of them, and the article doesn't really mention anything specifically.

Isn't just plain yogurt a pretty good probiotic? Or did you mean a pill with a live culture or something?

I like mango lassi, but for less sugar one should try something like plain Greek yogurt or plain yogurt with probiotics and add fresh fruit for flavor and the fiber described in the article.

It's probably not so much important for a particular type as far as we know as just to get some and experiment with what you find palatable and convenient and works.

Most of the flavored yogurts have way too much added sugar for the average American diet.

Kefir - a symbiote that can get the probiotics through the stomach more effictively than yoghurt alone.

According to this BBC research http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38800977

There are so many.

My self-treatment for suspected SIBO and diagnosed Microscopic Colitis is Pepto Bismol Max (1 dose) followed by a strong probiotic 12 hours later. The probiotic I've had success with is this one: https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-extra-care-probioti...

I really can't back this up, it's just the only thing that works for me consistently. That and meditation and yoga to help get the anxiety under control.

But (if you'll allow me to digress) the anxiety is most definitely influenced more by the state of the gut than other factors, in my experience; particularly (as in the original post) if I'm hungry or haven't "fed the bacteria." Anxiety spikes off the charts until I eat some simple proteins and it makes it past my stomach. The first grumble of the stomach emptying, and the anxiety disappears; I feel entirely normal again instantly, no joke. I realize that's weird, but it's my clear cut experience. Back to the medical pinball machine with me...

It's probably a good idea to eat a variety of fermented foods, not just a single "good" probiotic product.

FYI- if you get worse after taking probiotics and you rule out die-off symptoms, consider that probiotics produce gas and histamines.

I find that limiting all microbial growth, including that of "good" bacteria, is the only thing that improves my symptoms. This means eliminating all things fermentable (resistant starches, "prebiotics," FOS, FODMAPs).

VSL#3 seems to be one of the few probiotic products with enough bacteria in it to actually make a difference.

I seem to have used it with some success in calming down a bout of very nasty Rosacea that -might- have been SIBO related.

Purely anecdotal, one of the worst parts about Rosacea is that it literally changes with the wind (weather can have a huge effect), so tracking what works or not is really hard.

While researching probiotics I came across a recent study that has found increased obesity in response to VSL #3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29493105. While I do not have any details on the study methodology, I think it is best to be cautious while trying out supplements.

Thanks for the link!

I definitely agree, gut flora is no joke! And I don’t recommend messing around with it unless you have something pretty serious you want to fix

I've used these and they're good. Their digestive enzymes are good as well. I wouldn't trust any of non-refrigerated grocery store brands. http://www.giprohealth.com/probiotics.aspx

You can also get Rx probiotics from a pharmacy (in single use packets). I think they are pretty expensive without insurance though (around $250 for a month's worth) but may be cheaper than the above if you only have a co-pay.

You can also make your own yogurt. Letting the yogurt ferment a full 24 hours instead of 4 to 8 produces a lot more of the probiotics and reduces the amount of lactic acid left, but can be a pain to make (normal yogurt makers will usually overheat).

Did a retreat. We ate at 6AM and 11AM. No food after Noon. Fasting for 18 hours a day, as we were designed. No stomach problems, felt great, real and regular.

Problem is, we eat a feast each and every night and were never meant to. Our success is killing us. Slowly and in a variety of horrific manners.

The natural state of humans in our early days may have involved the things you claim -- it's a tough claim to back up. But it almost certainly also involved a much shorter and more violent life than we enjoy today, when "our success is killing us".

> Our success is killing us. Slowly and in a variety of horrific manners.

As opposed to our 'natural state', which would kill us rapidly and in a variety of horrific manners.

"as we were designed".

Sorry what does that mean? Do you think that 50 odd generations before us aren't changing our DNA with habit changes, while living in a different country for 2 years does?

Also we were designed?

Do you find asking stupid questions productive? Honestly curious about that one. Also, this question I ask is a leading one. Know the difference.

Design can be considered "doing" by an organism in its change for survivial. Our "doing" made us be efficient with food. It's not like it was laying around or something back when we evolved, like it is nowadays.

Doesn't matter if we have an excess of food laying around today, DNA-wise. It takes generations to evolve new organisms that can deal with glut or scarcity. We are evolved the way we are and unlike the dork who wants citation about it, you aren't going to get what you want just by demanding it.

Only doing will show the truth. Talking about it is pointless and counterproductive to the end goal of reality, which is basically the efficient search for interesting.

> Fasting for 18 hours a day, as we were designed.

Is there any evidence for this at all, other than food was scarce? I can weave an equally compelling tale that as browsing hunter-gatherers we were eating pretty much constantly from the moment we woke to when we fell asleep, albeit in small quantities throughout the day.

My gut is telling me it is time to consume about 500 calories just like my medicine literature says I should have done before I took it. If I don't eat I will have to listen to my gut churning and growling all night long.

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