Matias Click Switches: Tactile mechanical keyswitches | Hacker News Reader

Matias Click Switches: Tactile mechanical keyswitches

matias.ca

46 pointsarm53 comments

This article is lying or perhaps I am misunderstanding.

The article states: "Cherry switches are linear — by definition, not tactile. They lack a click leaf, which is required for tactile feedback."

I have used and built several mechanical keyboards with Cherry MX Blue switches. They _are_ non-linear and _do_ include a click leaf which gives the Cherry MX Blue [1] its characteristic "bump" feel and click.

[1] https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/keyswitches

As a blues-user myself I agree with you. They are both non-linear and include the click leaf. I've found quite a good gif [1] that demonstrates the difference between switches and shows the mechanism in the blue switch. Whilst I don't know if this diagram was produced by Cherry, or another authoritative source, I know that within the Mech community it has been recognised as being entirely accurate.

[1] https://i.imgur.com/WWH2M96.gif

They are also not very honest about "Cherry copied our backlighting idea" - all the MX I ever saw have a hole for a 3mm LED, and I'm sure I saw other vendors selling backlit keyboards with MX switches even if Cherry itself was late to this game. I think it's all retarded, and it's not very innovative by itself to replace blue diodes or whatever with multicolor diodes. Whatever will sell to kids eh?

Cherry has been around for decades, far longer than the idea of backlit keyboards existed. Obviously at some point that became a thing so they would have added the hole.

Before the backlit keyboards became a thing, the hole was meant for a lamp to shine through a window in the keycap, like caps lock.

The first Alps keyboard (Zenith SuperSport) I had actually had a lamp and window on the caps lock key!

They were not talking about through-hole LEDs in that section as Alps styles switches (Matias is resurrection of the simplified Alps style) cannot have both a through-hole LED and have a tactile or click leaf. They are talking about how Matias used a transparent switch housing along with SMD RGB LEDs which allow the light to shine through.

Browns, clear, grey, green, white are nonlinear as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_(keyboards)

Subjectively I like cherry more than Mathias so far from the typing feel. I built keyboards with blues, greens, and reds, and I got one keyboard with Mathias switches. I like Topre even more than Cherry. But it's all very subjective.

The only way i've ever achieved close to the same feel of brown alps is by frankensteining two cherry clones together (in this case invyr panda housings with zealious stems). That said brown alps are highly soughtafter and old boards that contain them fetch high dollar on ebay.

There are dozens and dozens of cherry style switches by a number of companies. Cheery (of course), Kailh, Gateron, Outemu are all popular. Personally, I've kind of gravitated to Kailh as a company doing interesting things in that space they have tons of different skus each slightly different. Picking up a sampler might be a good way to go if you are trying to choose a switch that fits you.

For me, before I built the frankenstein switches I was pretty partial to the Kailh Box Burnt Orange switches.

My primary go to for Kailh swiches, I'm in the US, is novelkeys.xyz.

The tactility of the Cherry MX Blues is not particularly satisfying by the standard of other clicky switches (e.g. buckling springs, Alps, etc). I've recently tried out the Kailh Box switches which have a different tactile mechanism, and they are (IMHO) a big improvement over the MX Blues.

article lies. Cherry makes several varieties of mx switches. They generally fit into one of three buckets. Linear (constant force throughout the stroke), clicky (has a tiny "clicker" int he switch that adds a small "bump", or area where you need to apply a few more grams for force, and an audible click), and tactile (contains a "bump" in the stroke to indicate the actuation point, like clicky but without the auditory feedback.. though the bump generally doesn't feel as crisp).

I use Cherry MX Greens at work. Ain't linear at all. Definitely agree that whoever wrote this worded it poorly.

I have a Matias Ergo Pro. It's a brilliant split keyboard. Great quiet but tactile switches, tenting, etc.

But the QC is terrible. The interconnect cable had connection issues, keys are often 'stuck' (not physically, just keeps repeating until I press it again), etc.

And the internet is full with complaints. It's a pity, but I would not recommend them right now. (I've sent it back then got a new one with exactly the same issues, then I didn't bother in the end even though I paid more than 200 Euros for it.)

for me, the problem is the key (pressing 1 time resulting in 2 chars, not sure what's the proper term for that)

key chatter is the term you're looking for. You can usually fix it in your OS keyboard settings (increasing a bit the repeat delay)

Yep, also known as key bounce (happens when a key bottoms out and bounces up slightly which results in an unwanted key repeat).

If it's insufficient debouncing in the hardware, then something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FilterKeys might help as a workaround, but it's ultimately a hardware problem.

but it just happens to a single key. i think it's defect rather than os settings

It is a physical problem with the key. You can fix it by disassembling the key and cleaning the contacts:

Original guide - https://imgur.com/a/elAFF#0

Thread with context - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2hjct6...

However, this is really Matias's problem to resolve. Supposedly the switch or the assembly process has been redesigned to prevent this problem in the newest batch, but I don't know if it's a proven success.

thanks for the tip but i have moved on to other boards. this was a few years back.

It is a defect, but you can work around it by using those settings.

Paid 150 euros for mine (matias silent something), was faulty (some keys would either not record a press, or record twice), asked for a replacement.

Replacement had the same problem. 150 euros thrown.

Otherwise an awesome keyboard, that I'll never recommend to anyone.

I echo this. When my TKL KBParadise with Matias Quiet Click switches started misbehaving I was quite disappointed to find out that chatter is a common defect of Matias switches. Don't like the stabilizers either. Should have stuck with Cherry MX Browns, by far my favorite switch.

Same here. Even soldering and replacing switches couldn't keep it going. The switches had a thin metal contact that has to bend to close the circuit and it'd just break after little use.

Unfortunately I've had the same experience.

1st keyboard: connectivity issues after 2 months, got replacement

2nd keyboard: some keys (4-5 letters) detected two presses when I pressed a button, got replacement

3rd keyboard: same issue as 2nd one, with different keys.

Then I gave up and switched back to my old keyboard.

There's very possible still some value in the keyboard. Someone over at /r/Mechanicalkeyboards would certainly take a look. It might be a matter of removing the current controller chip and putting in something custom. Or removing the switches and using them in a new design. They've put more effort into less.

But the QC is terrible. The interconnect cable had connection issues, keys are often 'stuck' (not physically, just keeps repeating until I press it again), etc.

Ages ago I had a Matias keyboard: https://jakeseliger.com/2007/10/18/product-review-matias-tac...

Never again.

I had exactly the same problem with the Ergo Pro, with exactly the same resolution: within a year, it was simply untenable to continue using it due to repetitive key issues. It's a shame, because I actually liked the feel of their keyswitches, but it was starting to drive me nuts the number of times I'd have to correct something, to say nothing of the number of mangled vi and zsh commands that resulted from a stuck "r" or "t".

I really liked the split layout, though, and going back to a tenkeyless non-split keyboard started to bug my wrists. Fortunately, Kinesis now has a split keyboard that uses genuine CherryMX switches, and it's been terrific: the combination of a split, adjustable keyboard with actual mechanical switches has finally made my wrists and fingers happy.

I've gone through a lot of keyboards. IBM, Unicomp, Sun Type 4 and 5, Apple ALPS with ADB converter, a bunch with various Cherry switches including Filco, Leupold, etc.

I had two Matias keyboards, the tactile pro (I think original) and the 2, and while the switches are okay neither held up to daily use with keys that wobbled, cracked plastic, and both suffered from keybounce and had poor NKRO (enough that I noticed it in Emacs). No thanks.

I settled on a KUL tenkeyless board with Cherry Green key switches[1] which feel similar to buckling spring and it takes up less deskspace. The caps have worn slick and the printing nearly gone but the feel is still good.

[1] https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Green

Did you manage to try HHKB Topre ?

+1 for the Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro.

I use one. Relatively expensive, but brilliant -- very much my favourite ever switch and keyboard.

Just fancy rubber domes.

> Did you manage to try HHKB Topre ?

I used a colleague's for part of a day. I didn't like it-- key feel or layout-- which saved me a few hundred dollars. As a bit of a collector, I'll probably get a Realforce eventually.

The layout is a bit awkward at first, mainly due to no arrow keys. I switched to HHKB from Poker 3 (another keyboard with 40% layout). Even then I had a brief amount of hard times adjusting to HHKB. Nowadays, I use both of them at home and office and love them.

I heard Realforce are pretty good too!

I loved my Matias keyboards, but they just did not last.

After a while I’d start getting dead keys and double-characters. Pulling the key caps, blowing some air, and putting them back on helps... for a while. Ultimately, it was too frustrating and now I’m back to an un-clacky keyboard :( oh, well.

Yeah the Matias Alps clone switches are notorious for accumulating crap inside the switch causing them to need to be cleaned to maintain working order.

I love matias switches, however my experience with them is terrible. i got replacement twice (3 boards), however, none of them work properly.

I have a keyboard with a mathias silent switches, but I'm replacing it with a Pok3r with browns. I like the browns better.

I have two mechanical keyboards. One is a Corsair K70 with Cherry reds that I use for gaming at home. The other is a Velocifire T11 with brown (non-Cherry) switches that I bought for $37 on Amazon, which I use at work.

The K70 I've had for at least 5 years now, and it still works flawlessly. The T11 I've had for about a year and a half, and it also works flawlessly.

My first (and current) mechanical keyboard was a Corsair K70 non-RGB with Cherry MX Browns. I don't game so I use it mostly for work-related tasks: programming, writing docs, books. I'm quite happy with it so far.

I have a Matias Quiet Pro Mini (2016) and it's by far the most comfortable mech I've tried (Cherry brown, red, blue and black. Would like to try clear and green).

From what I've heard their QC has improved over the past couple of years, and I've not had any problems with mine. They're also working on PBT keycaps which should arrive in a few months.

The dream would be a Planck or Preonic with Matias switches...

I do recommend trying Clears. I have a natural heavy typing, I do hammer keys with extreme force if they have any more way than cheap rubberdome keyboards.

The clears are very nice to type on though I wish I would have had a chance to try the superblacks. I'm looking into ways to increase the force on the switches for a while now, springs have been suggested at some point.

Halfbaked idea: somebody should start a service where you upload a 3d design of a keyboard, including a mapping of keys to keycodes, and they will build the keyboard for you.

so while it's not exactly the all in one service you describe, you can do something similar already:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/

to design your layout, then

http://builder.swillkb.com/

to design a layer case, files go to a laser cutting service,

then you would need a controller of some sort (commonly something like a https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/), switches, diodes, usb ports, etc.

then hand wire everything together.

tmk/qmk is more or less a defacto standard in custom keyboard firmware:

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware

here are some examples of people generating firmware with webtools, I don't know what they use on the backend.

https://www.massdrop.com/configurator/ergodox

http://qmk.thevankeyboards.com/

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware

Matias switches are knockoffs of the classic Alps switches you might find in an older apple, dell or SGI board. However their tacticle is nowhere near as good as classic brown alps. They also have a reputation for collecting dirt, causing them to need to be cleaned to stay in good working order.

My suggestion, just go with cherry or their knockoffs unless you really really want to use a classic set of alps keycaps.

Having tendon issues in my wrists, I would love a linear keyboard with gentle push down force. Or at least just gentle push down force. Any suggestions?

Kinesis Advantage 2 LF:

https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/partners/health-safety/ergonomi...

Has Cherry Red switches. I've been using an advantage for probably going on 20 years at this point, but I'm not going to lie, it took a fair amount of time to adjust to it's non staggered layout (the wells and thumb clusters are easy to get used to, but you have a lot of staggered muscle memory if you touchtype).

So if you aren't ready to take the "crazy layout" plunge but want low force switches, MX Reds are really light and really linear.

You can even go further and try Cherry Silvers, I believe they are essentially the same (same spring weight, same linear stem) but the actuate at 1mm instead of 2mm (most cherry switches have 4mm of total travel).

The Gateron Clear switch is the lightest linear switch currently available, with an actuation force of about 30g - half that of a typical membrane key switch and 50% less than the Cherry MX Red linear switch. It's not a particularly popular switch, because it's so light that the weight of your fingers tends to cause accidental keypresses on the home row. Nonetheless, you can buy a KBParadise V60 keyboard with Gateron clears. The Qisan Magicforce 68 is occasionally available with Gateron clear switches. Alternatively, you could buy the keyswitches and build a keyboard to your own specifications using a bare keyboard PCB.

http://www.mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gateron-Clear-switch-3-pin-for-mech...

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...

Seconded Gateron Clears (though I've heard the activation force is more like 35g than 30g). I use them on a Noppoo Choc Mini.

I'm a fast typist (around 130wpm) and use these switches just to try to improve speed, rather than anything relating to health. They're also great for gaming for me, playing Starcraft 2.

Another option around 35g is non-mechanical electro capacitive switches in the style of Topre, e.g. https://www.nizkeyboard.com/product/plum-84-ec-mechanical-ke...

Cherry Red switches are linear with light force. I was having some finger joint pain for a while, and bought keyboards with both Cherry Reds and Cherry Browns (similar but with a slight force bump). It took a little while but I trained myself to type on these without bottoming out the keys. My finger problems cleared right up, and as a bonus I ended up typing faster.

Cherry MX Red switches are probably what you want, there are tons of keyboards with cherry switches and frankly not a whole lot of difference between them in terms of typing experience. Corsair K66 is a decent example, one of the cheapest at $60 from amazon currently and doesn't have the ridiculous "gaming aesthetic" that plagues so many mechanical keyboards.

anyone participated in their 60% groupbuy? it's been 4 years but nothing is concrete yet :(

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65528.0 http://matias.ca/60/pc/

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