Clone software to start my own business. Is it ethical? (discussion) | Hacker News Reader

Clone software to start my own business. Is it ethical? (discussion)

discuss.joelonsoftware.com

54 pointsSingAlong26 comments

Was google a clone of altavista? Was facebook a clone of friendster? Was the ipod a clone of all other mp3 players? Is Mockingbird a clone of Balsamiq?

Just copying an idea is fine. And if you do any kind of market research, your essentially figuring out which idea is the most profitable to copy.

Its finally all about execution.

You're right, it's all in the way you execute. But starting off with the word "clone" doesn't sound good.

I'd say Google was "a take" on search engines like Altavista, Facebook "a take" on social networks like Friendster. They didn't start as "clones".

Maybe it's just a matter of phrasing but I was surprised by the number of replies like "go ahead, clone it!". Being inspired by, revisiting... are words that sound better to me. Between his decision on cloning and the outsourcing, it doesn't bode well.

"Clone" doesn't sound bad to me coming from a programmer. Any programmer who is good enough to create an exact clone will find it psychologically impossible to do so. There's no way a programmer could complete a clone without thinking, "I can do better... they should have done it this way... it will be much better and more successful if I change this part."

Maybe I'm wrong, though, and I'm probably naive. Are there any software clones that aren't just inferior knock-offs, implemented by cheap labor hired by someone who never intended to match the quality of the original? I wouldn't count any product that beats the original in any meaningful way, such as better support for a certain language.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think copying an idea is a problem. It's copying the execution of the idea that is a bit meh.

Google was a lot different than altavista despite aiming at the same market. That's why I wouldn't use the word clone.

There are a lot of people who made war games a la Risk, but that doesn't mean they use the same rules. If they do that's a clone and it's not a great way to start imho. But if you think you can improve it somehow, or make it different enough that you haven't just slapped a bit of paint on it, then I think those are good and should be encouraged (more competition ^_^).

Peldi is a class act.

He's wrong about one thing, though: "I wish you luck, but not too much" is much older than Obama-- here's a usage from 1932: http://books.google.no/books?id=10wCi1LnRFoC&pg=PA15&...

Too bad you can't link directly to his comment.

You mean like this? http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.829048.1...

From the perspective of a customer I would go so far to say that it is unethical not to copy it.

Wow, I think that's actually true (about followers making you the leader). I had a competitor (following, though not cloning), and it freaked me out (like, seriously), and for this reason (and others) I ended up stepping back somewhat from the space. But looking back... my best sales were from that period.

I also had liked being the one and only - but that's ego, not business.

Making an exact (more or less) clone of a successful product isn't especially unethical to my way of thinking, but it is stupid. The original product has a "head start" in the marketplace and you're almost certainly going to be playing catch-up in terms of market share and (here's the less part of "more or less") features.

What does make sense is a near-clone with a killer feature added. Google was like Altavista, but with results that are actually useful. reddit was just like delicious/popular, but with voting. Myspace was just like Friendster, but with uptime. Cheap/free when the competition is expensive usually counts as a killer feature, but isn't always the most effective way to make a profit.

I mostly agree with you but one small caveat - most companies do a relatively poor job of extracting economic value from their products on a global basis. So in this case if the OP is willing to work the Chinese local market much harder than Balsamiq can then the whole endeavour might actually be worthwhile. In short you dont have to beat the global maxima of product providers, just the local maxima.

Localization is very much a killer feature. Being just like Google[0] but with a China-centric instead of US-centric worldview seems to be working great for Baidu.

[0] In terms of core-product, in the ways that matter to most users

From the looks of it, he wants to clone Balsamiq not because he thinks he can do the concept better, or because he has a different take on it, or because he's inspired by that sort of functionality, but because they say they make a lot of money.

That's all.

He basically wants to ride on their coattails, and presumably sell a cheaper knockoff.

Which is, I think, rather sleazy.

"Which is, I think, rather sleazy."

Why, exactly?

To whomever modded me down: Are you capable of expressing an informed answer to a serious question, or is it that you just get dumbstruck at the prospect of explaining something you'd rather just take as a given?

The idea that plain copying for the sake of making a cheaper knockoff is somehow wrong or sleazy is prevalent in many places, but never well articulated. It seems entirely a cultural thing, something that bothers some people because that's all they've known.

If there's a deeper reason, I'd like to know what it is.

On a side note: The guy is outsourcing his core activity - the actual development of the product. That can't end well.

Part of the discussion is about whether the core activity is marketing. That's an interesting question.

Very good discussion. Is it software or marketing or the people who wrote it or the community they have grown? The software is Balsamiq btw.

Wow! I had a really strange experience there. I read the first post, thought to myself "Wow, this is a terrible troll, the rest of the comments can't be worthwhile", and hit Back. ("make use of open source projects, which is immoral" was the breaking point for me to decide it was a troll).

Then I came back to HN to complain about the troll, read your comment and the others here, and promptly turned around and went over to the site again to actually read the comments. And it's true! It was a very good discussion.

My troll filter isn't very sensitive -- I usually give people the benefit of the doubt -- but it unambiguously went off here.

If he clones, that's one thing. If he competes, that's another.

This is one consequence risked when an ISV is very public and explicit about how much money they make. The chance is always non-zero, but surely it is increased if you reveal numbers in public and they are large.

That said, I love Balsamiq and appreciate most everything he has shared with the public. And I think what this Chinese guy is proposing is scummy, at least in how he treats it.

My view is its similar to opening a laundromat across the street from an existing laundromat. Is it unethical? Wrong question. Would it piss you off if you owned the other laundromat? Yes. Golden Rule applies. On the internet any website is right across the street from any other.

I don’t understand the ambivalence for stealing. If you’ve ever tried to teach someone something, you know it’s impossible to get them to where you are. Maybe worse, maybe better, but never your equivalent. And if it's worse, no worries; if it’s better, it fuels your own development.

Why reinvent the wheel? If you can find a foundation from which to build a better service/app/mousetrap why not? Consider utilizing a clone a part of natural software evolution. Spend more of your time and effort on making it better than just making it.

"Imitation is the sincerest of flattery." --Charles Caleb Colton

I see your quote and raise it...

"Good artists copy great artists steal" - Pablo Picasso

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