Comment by stcredzero | Hacker News Reader

Comment by stcredzero | Hacker News Reader

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1. Getting women in the pipeline from an early age. Whether it's cultural, or women in developed Western economies don't need an escape hatch like in places they face few options --as a country, if we are to progress, we have to find a way to improve the pipeline. Increase the pool of women candidates, and you will not have to work hard at finding good candidates.

I've been in relationships with 2 women who could code, but who absolutely didn't want to do that as a job. (They formed these ideas well before they met me.) I also taught 100 level Computer Science courses at University, and encountered many young women with similar attitudes. There is something going on in our culture which makes women not want to code as a job.

Liana K covered some of this in an even handed way, even as the fury was still running hot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA

Google should have not touched the live wire that is a public policy for PR brownie points.

I suspect that they were invaded by large numbers of employees with an agenda who have what they feel is a moral mandate, who won't take no for an answer, who furthermore feel they are justified in toxic and intellectually stifling behaviors by their moral mandate. People are taught in college and socialized in online groups that it is their moral duty to pursue this agenda and take such actions. Given the scope of the reactions I saw come out of Google during the Damore furor, I think it's basically too late for them. I'd hope to be wrong, but I see little hope.

I don't think Google is wrong for trying to recruit more women. Their problems have to do with how their efforts have manifested in their internal culture in a way which stifles free inquiry and dissent. If it hasn't already happened it's only a matter of time before they succumb to stagnation and only run off of their market position and network effects. Also, as we have seen with other media companies, at some point in their decline, the decline will motivate behaviors which are harmful to society at large. I suspect this process has already begun.

I've been in relationships with 2 women who could code, but who absolutely didn't want to do that as a job. (They formed these ideas well before they met me.) I also taught 100 level Computer Science courses at University, and encountered many young women with similar attitudes. There is something going on in our culture which makes women not want to code as a job.

How do you know that what they want is a consequence of our culture? Did they say so?

For example, if they don't want to because it's just not enjoyable or interesting enough, then I think that's okay (provided it's being presented properly). It is okay if a person is not interested in a type of work. It doesn't necessarily imply anything wrong with either.

How do you know that what they want is a consequence of our culture? Did they say so?

Liana K makes the case for this side of the issue very well. The 30k foot version: Note that programmer used to be a preferred occupation for women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA

As someone who thinks that James Damore was unjustly fired and that many people and news media imputed things on him which he did not mean or in fact say -- Let me say that there is something toxic and immoral in the Bay Area tech community. There is something like that in any large enough group of people. If someone is a small enough minority, they can become a target for the very small number of sociopaths. Power does corrupt. There is an element of truth behind both sides of this issue. If it weren't so, it would not be as difficult as it is.

It is okay if a person is not interested in a type of work. It doesn't necessarily imply anything wrong with either.

I agree that is okay. However, I think it's highly likely that not all of the ire I've seen around this issue is an ideological fiction.

Here's my take:

We need to encourage both boys and girls at an early age [i.e. we should not discourage either boys or girls]. As these boys and girls grow up into men and women in the workforce, having been side-by-side all through school, I think both, by then men and women, will both find they have a place in the tech workforce.

In the US (and other places) we have people who pursue fame (in acting, singing, etc.) when we know and they know their chances are slim. But we as a society value "celebrity". We celebrate liberal arts. We don't so much celebrate hard sciences. That's part of the problem. We don't need so many cashiers and delivery boys and girls with liberal arts degrees doing nothing in their careers.

We could have many of those people who study liberal arts go into more meaty things --there are better prospects for STEM than for liberal arts graduates.

I agree that _recruiting_ is not wrong and arguably the right thing to do. We need to encourage our women to join the men in bringing progress to our society.

I don't agree with the skewed incentives for internal recruiters and the arguably ardent politics that has tagged along with the effort.

> absolutely didn't want to do that as a job

Do they as a hobby, or have they turned their backs on it entirely?

Both of their attitudes were approx: "Who would want to do this as a job!?"

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