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Comment by azinman2 | Hacker News Reader

Just curious — how do you effectively program blind? Seems to me like a really difficult problem because coding is about jumping around so quickly and needing to be able to scroll and grok at high speeds. You also have the issue of all kinds of specialized characters that are difficult for any kind of text-to-speech. Are there specialized Braille displays for this kind of stuff? How do you go back and forth between keyboard and such a thing effortlessly?

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Not the OP and not blind, but I've worked with a blind programmer before. You move your cursor in the code and it reads you the line. The screen readers can be adjusted so that the speed of reading is really fast. To someone who is not used to it, it sounds like gibberish. But it's pretty amazing how fast the speech can be. After that, it depends on the editor. My colleague used vi (this is a long time ago -- before there was a vim) and was at least as productive as me. The main thing is that you have to remember the code.

I've occasionally tried to set up a workable system so that I could program blind. I have vision problems where I get ocular migraines unless I have my system set up with a huge font and very high contrast anyway, so I often think that it would be nice to program without looking at the screen. However, I have yet to get my system set up in any way that works. Accessibility has a long way to go. Every time I've tried to set things up I wonder how a blind person can possibly get to the point where they can even start. It's so frustrating.

Actually if anyone in the know is reading this, I'd appreciate a pointer to the easiest to set up Linux system. I wouldn't mind giving it a try again.

But how does it sanely pronounce things with abbreviations or even something like:

NSDictionary *myCompoundedWord = @{@“key: [NSNumber numberWithInt: 7] };

And know that it’s missing the terminal “ in the string and has an extra space after the ]?

Seems very difficult. Would be great if it could understand the language enough to verbalize it at a higher level.

With the punctuation level set to all, the NVDA screen reader for Windows reads your code snippet like this:

n s dictionary star my compounded word equals at left brace at left quote key colon [pause] left bracket n s number number with int colon [pause] 7 right brace right bracket semi

It's a lot to absorb, but people do program productively this way. For example, the NVDA screen reader is itself developed primarily by blind people.

Interesting, how do blind developers feel about minimalist languages like lisp? On one hand it seems like it would read very well in some circumstances (+ 1 2), but the scoping could be a real pain. Cobol seems like another language that might be well suited to them.

Emacspeak[0] is one of the more popular voice oriented IDEs. I have yet to get it working, but I think you can do things like get it to read visual regions and sections between matching parens, etc. Ideally this is what I want to use, but it has resisted my efforts so far. Maybe I'll give it another try this weekend.

[0] - http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/

"parens parens parens parens parens parens parens some code here parens parens parens"

Ugh, that won't do. I need my: brace bracket paren asterisk some code paren bracket brace semicolon.

The regularity of Lisp's syntax suggests an interesting way to render it in speech, at least for blind people who happen to have a good ear for music. Set the TTS engine to monotone (i.e. no attempt at natural intonation), and increase the pitch for each level of parenthesis nesting. So it would basically be singing the code, going up a note or two for each level of nesting. It would sound weird, but I think it could work for some people, myself included.

I like that direction, but it also sounds like it might be hard to know the reference points. I wonder if it'd be easier to separate if you used musical notes in conjunction, where the octave/note/chord/scale is mapped to the indentation?

Even better would be tools that are aware of indentation, that you can't see the indentation, and help you debug problems without having to make it so explicit all the time. It could get really weird / grinding to have to listen to monotone speech that's constantly changing pitch.

What if instead of just the pitch it said "do ra mi fa so la ti do" every time you went up/down a level? If I ever lost my sight I doubt my tone deafness would would go away.

I'm not aware of any correlation between blindness and programming language preference, even when blind programmers work on their own projects. I used to think blind programmers wouldn't like Python because it has significant indentation. (Note: I'm visually impaired, but I program visually, not with a screen reader.) But as it turns out, I know blind programmers who love Python and can deal with the indentation just fine. The NVDA screen reader is written in Python, and that project was started by a blind programmer who could choose any language he pleased.

Some projects developed exclusively or primarily by blind programmers do make odd indentation choices. A couple of my blind programmer friends prefer single-space indentation, or at least they did the last time I worked with them (using Python). NVDA uses tabs for indentation, which breaks with the Python convention of four spaces per indentation level. But blind programmers are perfectly capable of following the usual indentation conventions when working with sighted programmers.

Finally, I don't know of any blind programmers who like COBOL. I'm sure there are some, probably working at banks like their sighted counterparts; I just don't happen to know them.

I think it would be much better if the screen reader could use sounds for punctuation, like the sound of a typewriter typing to indicate a dot, and some meep-like sound with the frequency goes up for an opening parenthesis, and down for a closing parenthesis.

That idea is as old as Victor Borge...

I liked Urbit's mapping from symbols to syllables: https://github.com/urbit/docs/blob/master/docs/hoon/syntax.m...

Screenreaders usually break it down into chunks it can pronounce or spell it out character by character, with added cues to indicate punctuation and some other things. It's not as slow as it sounds though, most blind people have their screenreaders set to read at a speed that is totally incomprehensible if you're not used to it. It requires a very good memory to manage something like programming, but blind people get really (almost unbelievably) good at that sort of thing simply because they practice a lot by necessity.

I imagine, if you can comprehend at a very fast speed, it gets easier to keep the line in your head. As you can store and revall the characters from the very short term memory. I don't know if this phenomenon exists, but if I,'ve heard the entire line in for example 0.5 seconds, I think I'll be able to construct a mental image of it and code.

Another point is that I imagine it takes your complete focus to listen and comprehend single characters at such speeds, so you will be super-focused on the task when you're writing code.

We, as the programmers with sight, can read code without getting anything out of it, if we're not focused.

> You move your cursor in the code and it reads you the line.

That's somewhat similar to how ed works. You choose a line number or range and print those lines to the screen.

Since you mentioned ed, I know of a blind programmer who actually likes and uses ed (or did last time I heard from him). In fact, he wrote his own version of ed that also includes a web browser, and called it edbrowse. To be sure, he's in the minority even among blind programmers. But for what it's worth, you can find an article that he wrote about his approach here: http://www.eklhad.net/philosophy.html

I am not blind but edbrowse is far and away the best non-GUI web browser I've ever used (better than elinks, lynx, etc). I highly recommend that sighted folk crack open the user manual and give it a try.

I love edbrowse! I keep a copy handy; it's the only web browser I know of that is distributed as a single statically-linked executable. Great for getting through wifi login portals before installing packages.

http://edbrowse.org/

Here's an example:

https://youtu.be/iWXebEeGwn0

> coding is about jumping around so quickly and needing to be able to scroll and grok at high speeds

I mean that might just be how you code, and GP does not code that way...

If you work on a large production code base, I don’t see how you can’t end up having to search and grok lots of code written by other people...

Since you mentioned braille displays, some blind programmers do use those. They're expensive though ($1000 or more). Computer braille has 8 dots per cell rather than 6. That's a good fit for ASCII.

depending on how our punctuation is set up with any screen reader, the characters in code are read off nicely. And no special Braille Display is needed for this; any normal one will do, then again, Braille displays are a rather wide selection. With the keyboard, we can move back and forth nearly as fast as, if not sometimes faster, than our sighted counterparts.

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