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Comment by allthenews | Hacker News Reader

Do any of the naysayers ever actually talk to their uber/lyft drivers? I've never met a single one with bad things to say about the job. Most seem to enjoy the social aspect, and many foreigners take it as an opportunity to practice English while making some spare cash.

Who are you people to presume that these rational agents need to be restricted from earning money in a way that they deem convenient? Especially when their work is at will and unforced? Do you really feel that there is some kind of net good to the loss of work that comes with forcing uber to pay minimum wage, when it means that many content drivers will lose work?

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Have you considered the incentives that they have when talking to a paying customer? Particularly one that is going to rate them based on the interaction?

Of course they "love their job"; they want to create a positive experience in the mind of someone who has a lot of power over them.

What I'm saying is that your anecdata has an observer effect that you are strongly discounting.

Also: most waiters think your jokes are funny, and every stripper thinks you're very handsom.

What incentives? A 4 instead of 5 star rating, and maybe a $1-5 tip? For answering a question honestly?

I think your incentives are overstated. Excluding some kind of egregious slight, riders have very little influence over drivers.

That is not overstated. The rating has a significant impact on their livelihood. In addition, tips are 100% profit. I'm sure $5 is chump change to you, but a $5 tip an hour would be 60% pay increase.

Well, there's no way for us to prove either side, but I suspect that $5 tips are rare, and given the enthusiasm of many of my drivers, I don't expect that many of them would feel the need to lie on the off chance that they might get a nice tip.

Also, consider that sob stories confer tips too. Why not convince your customer that uber is abusing you, but you have nowhere else to go?

I suppose we are just arguing over anecdote; however, my point is that the simple preponderance of drivers is evidence that by and large they are indeed satisfied, as they report to me when I ask.

> Also, consider that sob stories confer tips too. Why not convince your customer that uber is abusing you, but you have nowhere else to go?

Not in the context of providing a professional service, it doesn't. When was the last time you tipped a waiter or waitress more for a sob story? People want to be catered to when they're paying for a service, and part of that is not having to worry about other people's negative emotions.

Why do you think $5 tips are rare? 20% rounded up to the nearest dollar is my usual practice, and I don’t think of myself as someone who throws money around.

That is crazy to me. 15% is for good service, 20% might be for exceptional service. It's already a percent, no need to adjust for inflation.

I love seeing college kids tip 25% at food trucks with their clover iPad or square terminal. First of all, there is no waiter or service, and secondly, the options presented are 18%, 20%, and 25% or something equally stupid. I'm always fascinated that these kids with no income have no problem hitting the 25% button...for nothing.

A 25% tip is crazy. Our machine shows 15%, 20%, and "other", and I'd say we average something like 10% in tips any given day. Considering the level of service one gets from a food truck, that feels pretty fair to me.

College kids know what it's like to be broke, and on average, feel that food-service workers don't make enough money.

It's like the studies that show that poor people give a greater share of their income to charity.

I'm a 10% for bad service, 20% for not bad service kind of guy. It honestly takes all of my internal effort not to tip 20% for bad service.

> ...for nothing.

...for to pay someone who is working for them. The indirection of wage labor isn't enough of an excuse for me to not attempt to make sure the person who is working for me is compensated to my standard.

Then you're letting employers take advantage of you. The whole tip system is a scam in the first place. It should be a business's responsibility to price appropriately.

This is a good rule for interacting with tipped US workers in general: be generous, and tip in cash. Tips are a way for companies to save money by avoiding taxes, and a way for workers to be paid without their employers taking a cut. If you think Uber is paying your driver less than minimum wage, make up the difference in cash. Also, "internet points" in the form of stars cost you nothing, so give your driver five stars unless he was completely incompetent.

Luckily I live in a country where I don't have to ensure the survival of my taxi driver or waiter by giving them a tip.

They get paid decently from the start.

Drivers get booted off the Uber platform when their ratings go too low, so riders have plenty of power. https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-mysterious-way-uber-bans-d...

"For a Harvard student, the median grade is an A- and for an Uber driver, anything below a 4.7 out of 5 average rating from passengers spells trouble. Or, as one driver memorably puts it on Uber People, a popular web forum for rideshare drivers: “4.6 is [a] death zone.”"

As for finding out what Uber drivers actually think, you can google "uber driver forum." A unionization vote was called in one of those forums, and something like 96% of the drivers voted yes. Not a sign that they're happy with their lot, not at all.

I don't think that's really valid here - you're asking them for an opinion of their job, not their opinion of you. What they think of their job has nothing to do with how I'll rate them. Heck, I may rate them higher or tip them better if I feel sorry for them not making much money.

Yes, but they don't necessarily know how you specifically will act. It's better to just assume that having a positive and happy discussion is better.

If I collected the same anecdata with Uber drivers I know in real life, not in the context of an uber ride, would the observer effect still apply?

Yes, lots of people brag about their jobs, life, see Facebook.

Then you're subject to sample bias.

Article from 2014 about how Uber drivers can't be honest, to protect their jobs: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/against-sharing/

Have you considered that the fact that they keep driving is a strong indicator that they think it's the best possible way they can spend their time?

Two can play this game :)

Have you considered it might the best possible way to spend their time because they have hardships finding another job?

Of course!

I think most of us go to our current jobs only because we have a hard time finding a better one!

So, it wouldn't be too crazy to think then that those hardships finding another job would influence what they tell a customer asking them about whether or not they like their current job?

Now you're asking something else than what was originally asked.

They might say good things about their job because of the incentives to be positive and fear or losing the job. That's one argument that can be made, which I think is probably at least somewhat true: they might not like their job, but they won't admit it.

What you're saying now is something else (if I understood correctly) - you're saying they only think good things about their job, because they can't get another job. That's a totally different thing! That argument is: they like their job, but for specific reasons. An argument I find a lot less compelling (because it's always true!).

When I used to ride Uber/Lyft more I talked to a ton of drivers who had bad things to say about ridesharing, about how it's a race to the bottom, about how the taxi days paid more, about how the hours are grueling and they weren't fit, etc. I think it just depends on your sample. Luckily, studies explicitly try to find unbiased samples.

I always do and I've heard enough complaints about Uber from them that I've switched entirely to Lyft or Juno (local to NYC) which they much prefer and make more money from. They also frequently complain that they used to be able to live well off the driving but it keeps getting harder to stay afloat and they're not sure what they're going to do.

One guy that particularly stuck out had been an engineer at GE working on modifying helicopter engines for desert conditions for the US military (they ultimately made tolerances bigger and it fixed the sand problems counter intuitively). He then had a failed start-up and was driving because he couldn't find any work because of the gap in his CV (as he told it). Said he hated driving and it didn't pay the bills but he didn't know what else to do.

We all have plenty of anecdotal evidence. But maybe things are different in NYC than out west.

So Uber was the only company willing to hire that guy when everyone else rejected him, and somehow that's a blow against Uber?

Hire him? Not hardly. If they did that they'd have to pay minimum wage and cover FICA.

"Hire a contractor" is a common phrase in English, even federal agencies use it: https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0242-hiring-contractor

The point is that uber isn't economically sustainable for the driver

So you think it's better if Uber wasn't there and he couldn't make any money at all?

You get a bit of selection bias.

The issues with ridesharing remove people from the pool of drivers.

The two most common ones are 1) Accident without commercial vehicle insurance, 2) a breakdown without savings to repair or purchase a new car

My waitress is always so friendly with me when I eat out too. Nothing but good feelings all around.

I understand what you're saying, except a waitress runs the risk of losing her job for badmouthing the establishment.

An uber driver who answers me honestly when I ask how he likes the work runs the risk of a single less than 5 star rating, and no other consequences. That's part of the casual appeal of uber/lyft to a driver, I imagine.

What if you work for Uber, secretly. Just the sort of initiative Uber might undertake and I'm not exactly knocking this specific instance. Definitely an incentive not to answer in any method other than gushing love and gratitude.

All the time, and I get plenty of negative responses.

But what I think is far more damning is the median driver’s tenure. I can’t recall a driver in years that had been driving for more than six months, and even finding someone who’s hit three months is rare (in SF).

It's not like it's a desirable occupation. It's unskilled work. What you see is people using it as a temporary way to make money between other jobs. Not sure why that's damning.

Taxi-driving is a full-time job with tons of people who've been doing it for years. Is taxi-driving a desirable occupation for skilled workers? Lyft and Uber aren't keeping drivers for a straightforward reason: they're a comparably worse value proposition than being a taxi driver used to be.

I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the new system. There certainly are. But the drivers are bearing the brunt of the downsides.

Right, drivers no longer have the barriers to entry that prevent competition. The ones that don't bear the brunt are new drivers.

I have spoken many drivers in Toronto and most say that it might make more sense for them to work at a fast food place.

Why don't they?

Whatever anyone says during a business transaction can be thrown right in the trash, it's useless. I don't even earn tips and I know enough not to complain about my job to clients. When speaking to clients and customers you're going to try to be positive, doubly so for customer service.

Either way, everyone I know who drives for Uber is very financially illiterate and believes gas in their only expense. So the amount of money that they think they are earning might not match reality - that's the case with the people I personally know at least.

Yes, many have to me.

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