Ask HN: Washing out, and what to do next | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Washing out, and what to do next

59 pointsEVdotIO58 comments

I've been programming professionally for the better part of 7 years now, and can pretty confidently say I will not be doing that anymore. Worked in the bay area for a company and quit after a few years following a series of layoffs hitting my department. Then basically had two jobs where I only lasted for less than a year in each. Washed out.

Moved out of state and had two other jobs programming. The first didn't have enough work to keep me around, and started the second. I just quit that one after 8 months. It is probably my last as a programmer, my resume just has too many red flags from a hiring perspective, and are probably right in their assumption, along with my wariness of the field as a whole.

My question is, how did you folks out there find another career? DJing a strip club, no joke, is not going to be a viable long term solution, and for the first time have _no_ clue what to do next. No debt, children or any serious obligations, only caveat would be lack of higher education, so I can entertain a bunch of options.

What did you do to start a new chapter? Not trying to drum up a pity party, just looking for fresh perspectives out there on stepping into the unknown.

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I've never lasted more than 1 year at a programming job, either.

My solution is to take contract work. It helps so much to know that there is a definite end date coming up where I can step away from the company and forget about all of the nonsense. Having time off between contracts helps me recover from the hard work and overtime. It also has a second benefit of allowing me to charge a higher rate, because sometimes companies value a person who is available to jump in at a moment's notice to help with a crisis.

Having a decade of short-term jobs listed on my resume might sound bad, but it's worked out very well for me, in compensation and in skills development. Rather than be negative about not lasting long at one company, why not be proud of the diversity of experience you have and at how comfortable you are with joining a brand new team?

How do you have multiple short term stints? Do you flat out say you are only looking to join for a short period of time? Are they looking for experts in a particular niche or is there a market for generalists?

I also really need to step my marketing game up.

Re: the marketing side of things, if you don't already have a blog, start one today. Write about how to solve problems in your particular area of expertise (or the one you'd like to get hired for). Start a mailing list, and send your weekly articles out to the list. I've done basically this, and after 3 years running, built up quite a bit of traffic and email subscriber base, and some passive-ish side income (I wrote a book that I sell as well).

This is not a quick tactic, but it is a good longer-term strategy for building a following and a reputation.

Showing your work or projects if possible is another important aspect besides a blog

What about those that don't really have a completed side project. I've got a _ton_ of half completed things, and then something with libspotify, which gets DMCA'd in an instant.

Yeah, I need to actually get my domain name doing something. Looks like that's what I am doing today.

Just a quick bit of advice/warning about that too -- we programmer types love to obsess over the tiny details like picking the perfect blog theme, the best static site generator that will never need to change, debating minutiae like S3 vs self-hosted vs Wordpress, and on and on.

So my bit of advice is: none of that actually matters. Use the domain you have (sounds like you are!), pick the easiest platform to get started with, and write stuff. It's the writing stuff (and publishing it) that matters :)

Tell me about it. It used to be a home hosted plan 9 server. Then have been on a Vue kick recently.

Slapping something together quick and dirty.

There's two approaches:

1. 6-month contracts and the like, which you can via staffing companies like Randstad and Winter-Wyman ("contract staffing"). My impression this is rather like interviewing for a job twice a year.

2. Lots of short-term contracts (aka freelancer). This is very different, you're basically running your own business. You'll need to do a bunch of work to learn relevant business skills. E.g. lots of contents on http://doubleyourfreelancing.com

I work in a major city where there are many companies looking for short term contractors to work on specific projects. I've had contracts as short as a month, which have been for agencies that have a client project which is too much work for their in-house staff, or for startups working on a prototype. Some larger firms like banks tend to offer one year contracts as an alternative to hiring full-time employees which might have to be laid off in the event of future budget cuts.

I wouldn't say that they are ever looking for true experts, but having at least some experience relevant to the project is necessary. Any one of the following on your resume should be enough: front end web development with React or Angular, back end with Node.js or Java, devops, AWS, iOS, Android, etc.

I have no self-marketing skills at all, and a few of my first contract jobs came through a recruiting agency. Since then, I've gotten work through referrals from people I worked with before. The best thing about moving around between jobs is that you eventually get to know a lot of people who have seen your capabilities and are eager to bring you into their new team.

I am dealing with this dilemma right now. I am considered by most of my former colleagues to be a top performer, a great teammate and mentor, etc. and yet because I got unlucky and landed with some less-than-ethical companies, I feel like I've been branded. Because I decided to take a stand at those jobs and quit due to what I considered meanspirited or unethical behavior, my resume makes me appear flighty, when it reality it says more about the companies I worked for than it does about me.

Just a few hours ago, I got off a recruiter phone call where the woman wanted me to sugar-coat my history with my former employers when I went to interview. I told her, "No, if they ask what happened I have no issues telling them." If you're an interviewer and you get offended by me stating the facts--that many companies just downright suck--then that tells me all I need to know about your own insecurities.

This approach may make sense if you're either uniquely qualified or willing to speak to a lot of companies.

You are basically signaling what type of person you are, divulging critical information to the hiring manager when you do this.

Specifically, you are saying that you will not put up with BS. The problem is, work is generally at least 60% BS, and as a hiring manager, you want someone who will put up with the shit to get to the glory. And you really want someone who believes there is glory to be had - that person will outwork anyone else.

So you've signaled that you will not outwork others and that you will not put up with BS - you're interviewing and have already exposed yourself as a flight risk willing to do less than a theoretical other person would.

So yeah, they will pass on you in droves unless you have some unique aspect to your profile that makes you uniquely qualified.

Did you write the book on what the company is trying to do? If yes, more power to you - people put up with Steve Jobs to get access to his potential. Maybe you're worth it.

If not, you'll have to find someone who appreciates you and your values. And forget company value statements - that shit means nothing in the day-to-day. What you're basically looking for is a hiring manager with strong values aligned to yours, who also has the power to do the hire. And you'll find him if you look hard enough.

I have been trying my hardest to find such a hiring manager, but at a certain point one starts to wonder if they exist at all.

Why does the responsibility for toxic culture and unethical behavior fall on me, the applicant, the one with the least amount of power and leverage in the interview process? Why do companies get free passes on ridiculous behavior while I am supposed to compromise what I believe in to placate others? I'm asking a philosophical question, of course, but it's an important one: If not enough people stand up for themselves, we get worker mistreatment and toxic work environments.

Hmm. The problem is that most companies suck no matter what your profession is. The trick is to grow up and grow thicker skin.

One thing software development allows you to do is work remotely from a beach (if that's your cup of tea). That way you don't have to deal with all that office nonsense ;-)

I've been seeking out remote positions for this very reason. I would love it if a company focused on work and success based on that work instead of politics and personal interaction. While I've gotten very good over the past few years at navigating complex, toxic environments, it's a huge energy drain.

>"No, if they ask what happened I have no issues telling them."

Here's your mistake: They're not asking you what happened.

They're saying, "Tell us diplomatically why you left your last employer without blaming anyone and coming across as a friendly person we want to work with."

Is having short job stints that huge of a red flag?

I am not 100% done with programming as a career, but it turns out that most of my project stints were shorter and barely lasting a year.

Besides that, there is a huge question mark in the middle of my resume where I was doing contract work which wasn't regular for the time period, but it was pretty interesting compared to going to a soulless Open Workspace! for forty hours a week and put me in constant contact with the local startup culture.

If anything, I'm leaning towards doing remote stuff again, but it's pretty hard to find and I've already sworn off Elance/ODesk.

There are some better options than Elance/ODesk.

Have you checked out https://codefor.cash there are some other sites besides this that focus exclusively on remote work.

In terms of remote freelance perhaps TopTal might be considered. I have never worked for them but I have hired TopTal staff before and found them to be excellent. Anecdotally they all seemed pretty happy with their jobs.

What is considered a short job stint depends on the industry and how long an average project takes. For example embedded programming and hardware can have projects taking 1-2 years to develop so ideally you want people who stuck through a complete project. In other industries, projects might be much shorter.

Generally the more legacy/boomer an organization is,the more it requires higher ed. So the peace corps is out of the question, but americorps has some openings you'd qualify for. The lack of obligations and youth look very military... impossible to tell if the military would work for you; consider all the branches including the coast guard. Habitat for Humanity is a surprisingly efficient way to meet skilled trades workers, if you've never done the work before maybe you have an unknown skill for plumbing or electrician work; the pay can be better than programming, much more opportunity to move up in the field or start a company, and there's not as much ageism or weird political requirements as programming.

When I was younger, I actually seriously considered being a navy nuke.

I can't say I went full "wash out" but I did need a break from coding. From software development generally. So I switched to a role where I don't code but instead setup tech, install software on site at warehouses (Amazon).

My knowledge of how software works, and my ability to dive into the codebase to understand why something isn't working gives me a huge edge in this role. The fact that I like the space I'm in keeps me interested. Management like that I have the knowledge and skills I have and so I'm paid well enough for it. But all the while, I'm not doing the 9-to-5 code monkey stuff anymore. I don't know that I'll do this forever- some parts of coding draw me back- but it's a nice vacation from my career for a few years.

So my advice: find something you're interested in that has tech involved somehow. Go to the business or application side and find a role there where your background and knowledge is a major asset. Maybe even reach out to some companies you think might have or need such roles and explain yourself.

It really depends on why you washed out...

If you just crave variety, then doing short consulting contracts might be interesting to you. Recruiters are always looking for people to do 6mo contracts.

It sounds like some of the jobs the poster had ended due to things outside his control. For the rest: Did he decide that he didn't like the line of work? Was he anxious to rebuild everything with the JS framework he saw last night, but couldn't?

I'm fairly pragmatic when it comes to tech. With my last job it was heavy on HTML and CSS which I was fairly green at (alright -> decent at now), and there you could say I was a little over my head, but I don't think there were any conceptual issues I couldn't grasp. Obviously you can spend a lifetime learning on how to best rendering pages and modern browsers.

Programming can be so different just switching from one industry to another or one sized company to another. If you hate javascript, try embedded C++, or visa-versa.

People overlook red flags on a resume if you are the right fit. I have switched jobs just about once a year for 5 years and I still find jobs if I look in the right place. There are always people looking for talented people who do not fit into the mold of a perfect hire. Do not let a couple short gigs dissuade you.

A language is a language, and pretty much all aspects of computers I like.

The hiring process is something I would be totally alright with never doing again. Along with the hours at some places and with the feeling you need to take a job. I haven't had options when it comes to work. I'll take it if you give it to me.

I did RoR development back in the day, and worked on interesting challenges shoehorning that to scale for a fairly successful game. Worked with node and a smattering of mobile.

How do you break into other fields?

Tech around me is mainly medical and then aerospace.

I have a friend who left tech and went to art school. Now makes puppets for a popular TV show.

Find something that makes money, retrain, get it done.

Hard to say what you should go to without knowing what you disliked about the current thing.

I was primarily in gaming, and I know it's not the same across the board, but with "work" I can't say there was anything I disliked. Honestly I enjoy the technical challenges and problems of programming.

Issues I had: Crazy hours, the interview process... and with the bay area the CoL. Last job was a little more complicated, but I would say I need a certain degree of autonomy. Things were measured to 15 minute intervals on tickets, and I couldn't do it.

Retraining... I have thought about this. I don't know if something like CNC operator is the way to go, or follow a passion. No clue on what to look for or what makes sense. Don't know bang for your buck works there.

It sounds like you've just had bad jobs. Measuring by 15 minute increments is crazy. It's quite possible to work sane hours (I even wrote a book about it: https://codewithoutrules.com/saneworkweek/).

How about visiting https://www.keyvalues.com, seeing which things interest you, and see what companies meet your interests? As others have said, there's huge amount of variety in jobs and companies.

You worked in gaming? Was it for or under a large publisher? I heard those places are practically sweatshops.

Sounds to me like you need a better working environment. My personal suggestion is a move to Europe, where salaries are lower, but overtime is frowned upon.

Ouch one of my jobs was like that. I was supposed to log _when I was going to the bathroom_ in their homemade time tracking app. Then every evening the "standup" was the CEO berating everyone on how long it took them to finish their tasks for the day. There are lots of sane companies with healthy work conditions out there.

My advice to someone interviewing now: if something smells funky during the interview process, trust your gut.

I was primarily in gaming....

Gaming is to programing what sweat shops are to the fashion industry. It is a big big world find something lower key and lower stress would be my recommendation.

As for the gaps and the year stints, your young (in your career) no one is going to think twice about it if you move into another vertical.

I've known a couple of folks who worked in gaming and it sounds pretty hellish.

I would second thrownaway954's comment about finding jobs that take advantage of your programming background, and especially in security. Being able to understand the deeper technical aspects of systems and to troubleshoot issues that you spot can be a real differentiator over people who have some technical knowledge but can't really do much drilling down past running security scans.

If you're not hostile to federal employment or have personal hobbies that could cause obstacles to such employment, there is a lot of handwringing about finding good cybersecurity people. That is going to be a kinder work week, too.

I'd say my higher level comment though is to echo that short stints of employment aren't dealbreakers, and don't get stuck thinking too negatively about your experience or your resume. Get a second and/or third opinion from other people who can give you an impartial impression of your resume and talk through how you address those experiences in interviews. I've been involved in the hiring process recently for several positions and especially for younger people I actually expect them to be moving from company to company pretty often, if for no other reason than it can be hard to make meaningful salary gains without doing so. If you don't hate the day-to-day activities of the work, don't give up on it - just put more research into finding better environments.

Well, you might now want to give up yet. I remember, in the beginning of my career, i never lasted more than 1 or 2 years at a given company. Then one day, I found the right company and worked there for 6 years!

LinkedIn Resumes are filled with software engineers who don't last longer than 12 months, just look at all your coworker's linkedIn profiles. It's not that uncommon.

I also have had a similar experience early in my career of shorter stints.

If you don't mind sharing, what were some attributes that made the company the right one and what were attributes of the companies you didn't like?

The good company i stayed with for a long time had a culture of good work life balance, excellent management, and the tech stack was a perfect fit for my development. Plus, I got the luck of being on a product that remained in existence for five years, which is pretty rare. Most of the time when people get laid off, its because the product they're working on died.

Bad companies typically have low retention and are always losing employees for one reason or another.

As scary as it may be to start anew, I hope you're also really excited! I've changed careers twice now (maybe three times actually) since graduating college in 2010. I think the best thing you can do is take a real step back and think long and hard about what your personal values are. What exactly are you trying to optimize for? What energizes you? What drains you?

I try to do this exercise at least once a year. It helps me to distill what it is exactly I'm working towards. Your values will change over the course of your life and it's important to continuously re-evaluate what matters to you now. With your values in mind, you can then make sure that your behaviors are in line with what you care about most. Having a general "north star" will help you evaluate different options as you continue to brainstorm and think about what you want to do next.

Good luck! And congratulations! :D

What attracted you to software? What didn't you like?

Maybe you want another IT position, just not software (ie have you looked into hardware or networking)

Their are many good middle class careers to be had - big city, small town, blue collar, or white collar. Narrow it down by your life preferences.

We need more information about why you didn't like programming. Assuming that you need a job now as opposed to in four years, your best bet is likely something along the lines of technical sales or something else where you can use your work history to your benefit.

Pretty much what I know of sales is from The Office and Glengarry Glen Ross. What's a day in the life of that usually like?

Technical sales (or Sales Engineer) work can vary a lot. If you're working for a regional VAR much of your interaction may be on the phone, but working for an Enterprise Software vendor you'll often find yourself on a plane heading to and from the customer's location to gather requirements and make presentations in person. YMMV.

BTW, you might also consider working for one of the big consulting outfits, especially if travel is appealing to you, as an alternative to temporary contract work.

Long story short... everyone wants programmers that are young and want to change the world. When you're over 40, that doesn't go well, however that doesn't mean you have to get out of tech, just shift you're focus like I did :)

I became a security analyst. It's a way easier (though be it, less exciting) gig than being a programmer. Also being a programmer gave me a boost in a bunch of the domains (CISSP talk there) that cover the profession.

A bunch of other people I know have moved to other areas like:

Database Administrator, Network Administrator, System Administrator, Quality Assurance Analyst

Point is, you have WAAAAAAAAY more talents in those bones of your than you are willing to give yourself credit for... Don't give up yet!!!

Yes, OP might consider an IT position where programming is a smaller part of the role. As a former programmer you'd probably make a formidable system administrator. I know more than a few who struggle to copy and paste Powershell scripts, which I'm sure you'd pick up quickly.

If you can join a good company I'm sure you'd swiftly become indispensable.

Not sure I agree with your statements that everyone wants programmers that are young and want to change the world. It may be a SF/Valley thing, I don't know. Definitelly not NYC. Companies are desperatelly looking for people who know what they're doing, that have been on many projects. That have shit in production. Those people are hard to find.

I'm in the same age group as you. I've never coded more or better in my life and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Now that you've had seven years in the workplace, do you know what you'd like to learn? Education is wasted on the young. People with your experience, finding the right skill or trade or subject to study, can find it truly fulfilling and satisfying.

Are you washed out of programming in general, or just working for employers? You could take some time to work on your own projects to see how you like it. It's probably going to be zero income for a while, so if you're prepared for that, you'll be ok. After a while of that if you start making small amount of income, you may decide to continue down that path. And when you do, moving to a low living cost area (like Chiang Mai, Thailand for many ex-pats/digital nomads) might help also.

Do you like programming?

If the answer is yes, then don't give up. Move. Go to NYC or Chicago. Talk to few recruiters and have them help you "polish" your resume so that things you might consider harmful would not be prominent.

I'm always fascinated by people who start in the field and then change their minds. Obviously if you've never liked it then do something else, open a surf shop or taco stand. But as far as programming, for the foreseeable future it will be in high demand.

Seriously, don't give up!

You should look into Sales. Incredibly high earning potential, and one of the few industries where higher education doesn't matter. Feel free to PM if I can help at all.

Can you elaborate here a bit? What are the steps to get into it? I could use some sales skills, I'm currently running a consultancy and keeping the deal flow steady is a pain in my ass.

Sure. Usually for sales you enter in as an entry level role, and then progress based on attainment and success. After a few years it's easily possible to be a Manager, Senior Manager, or even a Director (if you're amazing).

I actually provide one-on-one consulting for tech freelancers and founders, if you're interested.

[1] www.sellsomemore.com

I'm as jaded washed out and cynical as it gets and have been since I started this career four years ago. but at the end of the day you need a job. If you have other options that's great. Use them. Nobody really becomes a better version of himself by coding, trust me on it. If you don't, that's fine. If you have experience and are willing to take low pay, you will be able to land coding jobs.

Did you not like programming, or not like something about your employment other than the programming? Do you like programming on your own, as a hobby? What the right thing to do is depends a lot on which thing you disliked about your previous jobs.

Go into management, product management etc. No need to program but knowing what it's like is a big plus.

1.Travel,see the world.It will give you more time and perspective to think 2.Re-educate yourself.

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