Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic? | Hacker News Reader

Is Loneliness a Health Epidemic?

nytimes.com

248 pointsdpflan248 comments

Interesting. No one has yet mentioned today's lack of community.

We don't share a sense of place any more, we move around from job to job, families spread around the country or globe. We rarely share an emotional connection and sense of place with our neighbours that our grandparents would have known. We haven't even kept the sense of virtual community that the BBS's had - social networks amplify dissent and engagement, not friendship and connection.

That's before you get to the amount of divorce and people living alone, with less and less free time or money outside of work.

I'm not the least bit surprised loneliness is becoming a global epidemic.

Agreed. Perhaps this is not exactly what you meant, but I do feel that shared spaces are shrinking and private spaces are expanding. I found this particular quote from The Atlantic quite telling:

"The United States is in some ways becoming a medieval society, in which people live and work in the modern equivalent of castles--gated communities, apartment buildings with doormen, and office buildings with guards--and try to shield themselves while traveling between them. They do this by riding in sport-utility vehicles, which look armored, and by trying to appear as intimidating as possible to potential attackers." - Keith Bradsher

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/11/suvs-and...

Sell your car and start biking year round. You won't be lonely for long.

What on Earth could you possibly mean by that? You'll magically make deep, abiding, social ties by riding a bicycle?

Well, it works for motorcycles. Sometimes I think I should get back into riding just for that reason.

Is this just dark humor or are cyclists just gregarious?

Not the OP, but I suspect that it's less about bikers and cyclists in particular and more a matter of coming into contact with other people who share an interest. Taking up golf or tennis would likely have the same effect.

I'm not against this idea, but an inattentive 23 year old driver who failed to yield killed a bicyclist crossing an interstate on ramp (in the crosswalk) down the street from my house last week, so there is risk involved.

Riding bicycles alone isn't going to help; its going to take decades of urban planning to fix the last 60 years of mistakes.

this guy clearly lives in the city. Some people live in the suburbs where cars are needed to commute to work

For a given definition of 'suburb'. My commute is 10 miles each way, not a problem.

Well, I live in the suburbs and ride my bike to and from work. Though my work is just 2 miles from my house. However, the vast majority of time I see nobody (other than people in cars) while riding my bike, so I'm not exactly sure what OP means by bike riding being a way to not be lonely.

Biking and walking to work are a couple of the loneliest activities I've tried.

I like to play "Will anyone smile and say, 'Hello!' back to me today?" whenever I'm out walking/cycling/running. The answer is more often than not, "Nope, no takers today."

Just to give an alternate take on the comment from how others are replying:

Maybe look at it as joining a community, not specifically being about cycling. Being a cyclist gives you something in common with someone else that you can talk about it and, when doing it, it's rather visible. A running club, writing group, etc. can be similar.

Depends on what you mean by lonely, I think.

I'm a transportation cyclist, but I don't think being a cyclist has measurably increased the number of friends I have. It did give me something in common with quite a few of my friends, but I didn't meet any of them through cycling. For a while I tried joining a cycling club, but I found that I didn't have much in common with racing cyclists.

Being a cyclist did however does apparently increase the number of people who seem willing to harm me, unfortunately. That's not loneliness, but it's not good either.

Did most people live and work in castles in the medieval era?

this!

I agree. However, in spite of my collectivist tendencies, I have to admit myself that it is too easy to romanticise communities from the past. They could be vicious holes with no room for scape, as the rural book trilogy from García Lorca or movies like the White Ribbon illustrate...

FWIW, my gym instructor proposed that the gym could be the new church - a place for people to come together. I don't feel it works out (he he), but it might be an interesting place to start thinking. I posted this list of suggestions earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16425522

I work out at a gym, and my workout takes about 1h15 to 1.5 hours, and then I have a shower and a commute. But if you have time to socialize during a workout, you either have a lot of free time or you're doing it all wrong.

I've never really understood how people seem to socialize between work sets. I've tried and it just completely kills my focus and momentum between sets.

I've noticed the people at my gym who seem to talk the most are the ones who don't really come to train, but to just casually exercise. They don't seem to be following a particular program, or even know what they're doing when it comes to performing certain lifts etc.

At my gym, a big chain in my city, there's the word Club constantly used, and it does attract certain types who just like to meet people or chat up people.

I can understand maybe being a small group doing circuits, but for strength training there's no time in between sets to have a conversation. I set a timer of between 2 and 3 minutes if I'm not supersetting, I'm not the best conversationalist during that interval.

The liberation of women has basically caused a diffusion of responsibility of communal tasks...Yeah, so maybe it was actually a bad idea.

Well, heck, you could say the same thing for Capitalism, which has also benefited billions materially. Liberation is bound to cause social disruption. The problem isn't the liberation. It's how society needs to (re)organize itself around change. It's ossification in how society views itself, which may exist in the older, traditional part, as well as in newer conceptions. The problem is ideological rigidity, which can be found in both the religious right and the secular left. You shouldn't be rigid when it's time to adjust.

I think this is right. The problem is people being forced or coerced to do things that don't actually make them happy. An ideological rigidity about expectations. But this tribalism is what makes human beings human. We're not going to get rid of that anytime soon, at least not without fundamentally changing the nature of the human animal. The best we can do is tell people "Prefer doing things that make you happy" and hope they don't commit their lives, careers, families, etc. to things that don't make them happy. And make "happiness discovery" much easier by changing the way we educate our young. Perhaps also it would help to give people an easy way out of things they don't enjoy doing? Kinda hard if those "things" are marriages or children, so I'm not sure how feasible it is.

this tribalism is what makes human beings human.

It's perfectly reasonable to construct a tribalism which aids in discovering the truth. Science itself is an example.

The best we can do is tell people "Prefer doing things that make you happy" and hope they don't commit their lives, careers, families, etc. to things that don't make them happy.

One of the best things we can do, is to have many non-exceptional role models, on which younger generations can make incremental improvements. What's needed isn't a whole-cloth re-imagining of the entire social reality. We need a kind of progressive traditionalism, where people can try and evolve towards a better society without dropping complex cultural systems which create value and human well-being.

Perhaps also it would help to give people an easy way out of things they don't enjoy doing? Kinda hard if those "things" are marriages or children, so I'm not sure how feasible it is.

I think it's far better to make people aware of the "price" up front, so such deep commitments are made by people who are ready.

I think people underestimate the inherent conflict that arises from the complex cultural systems you're talking about. I mean, obviously there is conflict, but I think it's way more intrinsic to our species than most people believe. And the conflict reinforces existing belief structures, stereotypes about outgroup members, and is then used to justify proliferating or escalating the conflict further. I agree with you that tribal constructs like science are a positive social development. And for example Stoicism and Taoism seem to be aimed squarely at reducing the inherent conflict of tribalism. I like the idea of making the costs more visible up front, and would definitely make that a part of the "happiness discovery" process of education.

With respect to creating positive and beneficial social systems, however, I'm personally of the opinion that the basics of social development are already nearly fully enumerated, and I think we're not going to stumble across something new which would do a better job than the things that we already know about. I'd love to be wrong, though. And so if what I'm saying is true, then it would seem to point back to education.

I also have a personal saying that "shared hardship is the key to utopia" but certainly it would seem that education is equally key. Like Will Durant said: "Education is the transmission of civilization". That being said, "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" and nothing is better at teaching the lesson that war is hell and should not be undertaken lightly than a good old fashioned war (e.g. the Long Peace). Ah, but now here is the main reason I think a human hivemind would truly bring us into a kind of shining Star Trek utopia: I could just share my wartime memories and combat experiences with people that haven't been to war. That would certainly work to turn people off of it. I really kinda went off on a tangent here, sorry!

However, I'm personally of the opinion that the basics of social development are already nearly fully enumerated, and I think we're not going to stumble across something new which would do a better job than the things that we already know about.

Why would you say that? Other than broad outlines, there are not so many constants in ways of life across history and around the world. Or, are you talking about broad outlines?

I also have a personal saying that "shared hardship is the key to utopia" but certainly it would seem that education is equally key.

My take is that Utopia == Neverland. It's like infinity. It's a useful concept, but you'll never have it physically realized within your grasp.

So, I'm not going to get too much into semantics because it's not interesting, and we could grind on it forever. But the essence of social interaction and group dynamics has hundreds of thousands of years of permutation behind it, and I'm pretty confident that human beings aren't going to come up with a new way of reducing friction at the interfaces of its tribalism without changing the definition of human being. The definition which includes what it means to be a human individual or a group, or what it means to communicate between human individuals and groups.

I'm pretty confident that human beings aren't going to come up with a new way of reducing friction at the interfaces of its tribalism without changing the definition of human being.

This is manifestly false. We went from murdering all out-group, to cultures of hospitality to strangers. We went from killing all members of defeated groups to enslaving them, then eventually went on to abolish slavery. We went from unfettered squabbles and mob violence to having the guilty hold bars of iron to prove their innocence before a deity to due process and trials.

History has clear examples of human beings "reducing friction at the interfaces of its tribalism." Human beings have, in fact, done this by changing the philosophical understanding of what constitutes a human being, so not far off from, "changing the definition of human being." This conception used to just mean a body. Then it came to incorporate a "soul." In many cultures, the person was equivalent with their "honor," which kind of amounted to their public image and reputation. (It was so in the early days of the USA, in fact.) Now we have a much more sophisticated notion of humanity and the self, which is evolving still.

The definition which includes what it means to be a human individual or a group, or what it means to communicate between human individuals and groups.

Clearly this is changing and evolving. Much of the time, it appears to be getting closer to some kind of objective truth.

Oh, you're one of those people that thinks we're exceptional from our historical counterparts. Or exceptional as Americans from the rest of the world. You would do well to read some of that history you're supposed to be pulling clear examples from. And you should really take a look at what our "much more sophisticated notion of humanity and the self" does every day in unfortunate shithole countries around the world. Or even what we do in nice countries.

What you think is an illusion. Add a layer of abstraction to get rid of implementation details, and we're the same animals the Romans were.

"John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

Oh, you're one of those people that thinks we're exceptional from our historical counterparts. Or exceptional as Americans from the rest of the world.

Neither of those follows from the gp comment. (Careful, your biases are showing!)

And you should really take a look at what our "much more sophisticated notion of humanity and the self" does every day in unfortunate shithole countries around the world. Or even what we do in nice countries.

You make some good points. However, I didn't say we were done; Just that we've made undeniable progress.

Another reason you cannot revert is that many women will fight you as much as they can to not revert to 1960 era. The idea is scary, I would much rather have you lonely then me being women in 1960.

Sacrificing confidence, feeling like I am actually capable, social status, ability to be independent and all that in exchange to emptiness of lonely largely pointless household work and forced dependence sounds like bad deal.

The world in 1950 was very different to today. Find it amazing someone is brave enough to claim gender equality was the sole cause for half the population being subjectively sadder as recorded by a wide array of surveys conducted to various standards.

Why not blame modern marketing techniques, the rise of human interaction replacing technology or leaded petrol while we're at it.

The correalations are all there and just as valid.

No one has yet mentioned today's lack of community...We rarely share an emotional connection and sense of place with our neighbours that our grandparents would have known.

A big part of this is the degree to which people in their 20's and 30's are willing to unperson someone in public spaces -- even in person -- just for the suspicion of holding to the wrong ideological viewpoint, or even just for being from the "wrong tribe." It's so common to encounter some sort of unfounded imputation of hidden unsavory motivations. This sort of thing manifested itself in the 80's as a bigoted/snap judgement questioning of one's religious affiliation or sexual orientation.

It was back in the 80's and 90's when I started to develop my information-flow technique for evaluating people: I would watch how they would evaluate me, and gauge what information they used to jump to which conclusions. Bigots often jump to wildly inaccurate conclusions quickly on scant information. Bigots often impute under-the surface motivations without justifiable evidence. I've seen such jumping/imputation in rural South Carolina and from people in poor white neighborhoods in Ohio. What's surprising to me, is the remarkable frequency with which I've seen essentially the same jumping/imputation in the Bay Area.

If you want community, start by exercising the Principle of Charity. Allow for a Loyal Opposition. The vast majority of people have well-meaning (as well as self serving) reasons for their positions. If you want community, let people speak and listen to them. If you want to destroy community, then silence people and impute dark motives.

I came out of academic circles in California in my young adulthood, and I see the snap judgements you refer to quite often in myself.

I think I was on a track where I valued learning and inference above everything, and that gave me a kind of a weird cognitive bias. Things I could rationalize that weren’t obvious got ++points in my head. The result being I overtrained towards using “scant” information, to use your nomenclature, and undertrained more abundant information sources that were more easily apprehended.

Kind of a masochistic information bias.

It did open my mind to some (very real) things that few people notice. Which is useful. But it also closed me off to some quite useful but more mundane realities. I probably share a lot with conspiracy theorists in that way.

It’s been hard reorienting myself out of that. In some ways I’ve overcompensated now and become more gullible.

"It’s been hard reorienting myself out of that. " I am very keen to know how you did that . I suffer from same habit

My pet peeve: matchmaking in games vs dedicated servers. Yes, dedicated servers had problems, and required some technical know-how to run as well as decent hardware. But they were mini communities. And some people actually enjoy matches with some level of imbalance. Mopping up a few players, getting smashed when you stumble upon a great one. There were some to watch out for.

Long story short these days I play single player games and board games. As a bonus, a well thought out board game stays relevant forever. It never has its servers disabled or becomes incompatible with new system.

>We don't share a sense of place any more, we move around from job to job, families spread around the country or globe.

That's not true. US labor mobility is the lowest it's been for generations. Our parents' and grandparents' generations had far more people that moved for work. In fact, there's a strong case to be made that a lot of social problems result from people not having the opportunity to move to areas of greater economic opportunity, whether it's because they're caring for elderly parents, or because housing is too expensive in those areas, or credentialism and increased licensing requirements have made it impractical for them to move across state lines. Whatever the cause, a wide range of economists and social scientists believe that more mobility, not less will help solve many of the pressing social issues that we face.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/07/labour-...

http://neighborhoodeffects.mercatus.org/2017/01/26/why-the-l...

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/upshot/its-not-the-inequa...

There's the concept of a 3rd place[1]. Traditionally a male-centric idea, but as the gender equality gap decreases they will be more and more important for everyone.

Basically, there are 2 standard places that adults spend most of their time: Work and Home. The 3rd place is a community space like a barber shop, and allows people to participate in their community, meet people, share ideas, ect.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

I am incredibly lonely. Health and financial circumstances pushed me into the worst possible social situation...isolated in rural unconnected America where the only two people I regularly see resent me and it has had a severely negative effect on my already miserable health over the years. Being middle aged it magnifies the issue as it's harder to connect as you age anyway due to life's progression. I saw huge numbers of older people in my previous work who were so terribly alone. It's hard enough when young.

A "remote social life" is not even close to the same thing and chats online or the phone with "disposable friends" and strangers who have a clear and easy disconnect from your real life don't fill the hole a lack of enduring, present human contact leaves and usually take precious energy with no real benefit. Even though I am an extremely introverted person by most standards I still need social connection to thrive and have felt the best living in big cites with lots of options but I can't find a way back.

I'm really sorry to hear you're struggling with loneliness.

Out of interest, how are you stuck? (Obviously, feel free not to indulge me if you'd rather not discuss your situation with a well-wishing but uninformed stranger.)

My life was destroyed by medical errors and my present situation is the culmination of things collapsing and not being able to shrink anymore. Been saying for ages I am gonna lay the story out here and hope for some miracle plan. Intend to post tomorrow morning. Was going to today (keep stalling out of fear of negative or null results, and things keep happening) but this morning my amazing 1mpbs spotty rural internet was out due to lightning so I missed the morning rush hour.

I'm very sorry that you have to suffer through this alone. All I can offer is my electronic compassion -- I hope you are able to find even 1 small thing in this world that brings you joy. Sometimes that seed can flower into something beautiful :).

I also encourage you to post part or all of your story tomomrrow. I look forward to reading it.

I do have a cat that brings me joy lest I sound joyless. She is often less appreciative of our relationship and I fear I may simply be a carefully manipulated treat dispenser in her eyes, but I love her anyway. Thanks for the compassion in any form.

You will get negative responses, accept that before you post. Perhaps there is some value to be gained from the negative responses, but you will also get people who care enough trying to help. Some of those will look negative, but read everything and sit on them for a few days.

I'm sure you've figured out that it's really hard to offer helpful advice to someone when you don't know their situation, which is something that keeps coming up here.

Post away, I'm looking forward to reading it in the hope that I may be able to offer some help.

It's up but I think dead. Crossing my fingers.

That sucks. :(

While I doubt anyone is going to summon some kind of miracle plan, I think there are lots of people here who'd be eager to read your story and try to help. So yeah... if you're up for sharing, please say when you're ready.

It is a real problem. I also think you can take baby steps to address this. Find a hobby whether gardening or board games or kayaking or whatever. It is hard to make friends as you get older except (imo) around hobbies. People will gladly talk endless about their favorite thing. This might not lead to a bff but it is a real human connection based on shared interest. This hobby might not be in your village, you may have to drive an hour but please do it. I think it will really really help.

Well there is the rub...I can't do the hobbies I enjoy because of physical health or money or both. The other things that might provide SOME diversion or evolve into new hobbies aren't accessible here because I am isolated rurally. Driving for an hour requires borrowing a car, paying for gas and expenses and fearing a breakdown which I would have to pay for, creating more pain with the 2 hours of travel which sucks up my endurance window and is a net loss. When you live in a city a 5-10min tram ride somewhere is a lot easier to endure and accesses so much more.

I understand that it isn't an easy road but nothing is.

Gardening or photography is a hobby you can start yourself with almost no cost and health isn't a real barrier. If there is no club, you could start one. Or maybe join the mall walking club which may also help with your physical health. There is something out there for you. You're worth it so put forth the effort. The return will surprise you.

I know you mean well, and I am not trying to argue for sport or be difficult, but it's not as simple as you imagine. I have health issues that prevent me from spending time down in the dirt gardening and I don't find it appealing at all. Photography requires infrastructure and equipment. Walking is a big problem for me because of the surgeries and fallout.

I really wish people would not do the "you have to work at it and it's worth it" thing as if someone in my position is lazy or doesn't want to have a better life. They keep throwing out things they think are so simple and obvious but can't seem to accept there are real, practical reasons certain things won't work. In addition you can't force someone to like something they simply don't just because it's "available". Please believe me that none of this is my lack of effort or attitude. Nobody would choose this life if there was a realistic way out but many people live like this. I do the best I can but it's crushing.

This is going to sound stupid, but if you can't do hobbies you previously enjoyed are you just never going to find new hobbies?

If you have no in-person interaction that you know you need, are you just never going to go find it? Where do other people get it in your area? Church, probably, since you're rural. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you aren't interested in religion, absolutely hate where you're at, and probably the people, too, but I beg you to call local churches until you find one that can help you attend and where you feel welcomed.

Ugh, the "go to church" suggestion.

Yes, I get that a lot too, and it makes me more depressed. If you're someone who's in the process of extricating themselves from a religious upbringing, this isn't a fun thing to deal with in addition to "regular" mental health issues.

What is helping me is:

* removing toxic parts of my life as much as I can.

* proper diagnosis and medication (the revelation of a late ADHD-Inattentive diagnosis is life-changing)

* meditation (Kabat-Zinn style mindfulness, warning that in my experience not being treated or missing your meds for anxiety/depression may make this a frustration engine)

* forgiving myself for not being more proactive (the hardest one)

* focusing on getting my son out to play with other kids (helps meet people with the same time-schedules)

What doesn't help me:

* Not taking my meds.

* Making extravagant plans. (Big things are more intimidating and generate avoidance).

* Cursing the past. (Mistakes were made)

* Going to church. (Attending a ritual gathering as a nonbeliever can be an incredibly isolating experience.)

The point that you highlight going to church as a non-religious person as the best way to deal with isolation emphasizes the real issue at play here: that civil society is increasingly non-existent to the point that non-religious social outlets outside of work don't exist for the majority of people

Have non-religious social outlets ever existed in any great numbers though? I can't think of any widespread institutions that provided community other than sheer physical proximity, which itself would largely be a 1:1 relationship with church membership in most places.

Fraternities, Unions, Social Clubs.

Admittedly, the largest Fraternities have religious components themselves (the Freemasons, especially), and Churches themselves at times have fought the big Fraternities as "competition", but arguably the big Fraternities are kept separate and distinct from Churches for strong reasons, and tend to sway more secular with the biggest religious ties being calls to charitable service.

I've often wondered if it was possibly past time for a revival of the Oddfellows in America, which at one point was a huge entirely secular Fraternity (whose biggest remaining impact is a lot of fascinating 1900s-ish architecture in most major American cities): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Order_of_Odd_Fello...

There's also a lot of interesting similarities to classic Fraternities/Unions/Social Clubs reflected in cosplay/fandom Unions and Social Clubs such as the multiple Starfleet Fleets (including Barfleet), the 501st, the Ghostbusters Locals, etc. Admittedly fandom/cosplay can be their own religion of a sort, but such things are extremely secular.

Hey, good luck. The hard thing about recommending hobbies to strangers is that one don't know them so the only chance to guess is to project what I like. Moreover your issue is not lack of hobby, but being alone in the house due to logistic reasons.

When I was lonely and isolated (less then you), arguing on the Internet helped. It is not same as real communication and friends, but it more then nothing. Keeps you from loosing it entirely. Writing is communication too, altrough less effective.

Another weird thing was that when I finely had chance to communicate, it was tiring because I basically forgot how to do it. If that happens to you too, that is ok and normal. Don't get discouraged when talk won't go smoothy (as I did).

I wish you good luck, that something around you shows up.

Hey man,

I also have some permanent health issues (not as serious as yours probably, but still) and I totally get the frustration of people applying wishful thinking to your situation without having any experience with the kinds of problems you're facing (as is happening in this thread).

I know it's not what you asked for, but feel free to drop me a line anytime if you need to talk to someone who has at least a slight chance of getting it. I can be reached on gmail under the same username.

I get you have good intentions, but be careful not to assume you have a handle on what the physical health troubles are, nor that you understand the exact circumstances preventing action that seem easily surmountable to you. It can be more harmful than good to suggest stuff like this if you've missed the mark in your assumptions, speaking as someone who experiences a lot of well-wishing advice for similar reasons.

Sometimes it's better to listen than explain.

I explain it like this: if you're "normal," for lack of a better word, interacting with someone with major depression can feel like debugging a program that is currently in an undefined state. Nothing makes sense, and your rules for how a program should behave are irrelevant, because depression makes me think in ways that are completely bananas (both to you and me, oddly enough). But, you can't just restart the process, so take your time understanding what's going on before acting; sometimes, action is not the right course at all.

I'm not trying to pick on you. I just see this a lot on HN when someone brings up major disorders -- "just work out! just garden! just be happy!" -- and it's troublesome in general, not just you.

Alternately, people who give advice likely experienced similar issues and overcame them. I sure have, and would echo the same recommendations, but like I was, OP just gives excuses why he can't do the simplest thing like recalibrating hobby expectations.

OP is reaching out for compassion but with such a tiny social net only internet strangers can help, and what else can they do but suggest their own life experiences? It sounds like OP has no family or friends to interact with let alone get help with tasks, so if he wants a good avenue of support then he should contact a local church asking for a ride to attend then get to know people there.

I disagree with this notion advice is mostly rooted in similar experience. 15 years of anecdata anyway have shown me differently. It's mostly rooted in well meaning of course, and I am not implying people are being malicious or anything. People do commonly ignore relevant issues that change the playing field in any given situation.

Also when you do meet others in bad situations that have overcome there is a strong survivor bias thing going on around them which leads to people being upset/confused when it doesnt work for you. You must simply be doing it wrong, right? People seem to often to get bothered/angry/offended with you if their advice doesn't work or isn't applicable. I understand the psychological root of this, but it's still disheartening and kills me when I see people feel like people like me simply don't want to be happy or have lives. I didn't post begging for a friend to cure my lonliness. I have far more pressing issues. I posted because it's relevant to my life and cant do much else atm.

You have mentioned church a couple of times and I am not ignoring it...I just don't know how to respond without offending you or someone else. It's just not my thing...I have tried it more than once. I don't want to debate or upset anyone. I probably worry too much about what others think of me...but it does make me feel worse to spread any bad feeling. I didn't downvote you either and always worry people will think I am giving them a "SCREW YOU WRONG" karma mark when I see their posts greyed. Sort of wish downvotes weren't a thing honestly.

Yes, I certainly appreciate you downplaying the mental issues I've had to overcome. I've certainly had external intervention but I feel that you suggesting my recovery is simply "survivor bias" is diminishing my experience in favor of making yourself feel better.

Your problems-barring your physical issues-aren't unique; you need your community, you need hobbies, but you say "Been saying for ages I am gonna lay the story out here and hope for some miracle plan" as if someone else is going to tell you your story. How will your life be fixed unless you fix it?

And don't mistake my church suggestion for preaching religion. If your community has social events you could otherwise attend, go for it.

> Sort of wish downvotes weren't a thing honestly.

I was fine with them until the graying out thing, which turned them into basically a demonstration of the power of silencing. All it takes is four people to consider your comment unworthy, and you might as well have not said anything at all; it's oddly futuristic, to use a safe adjective, that the more people who dislike your comment the more difficult it becomes to read. What if we applied that to other situations? Four people dislike what you're saying; please wear this mask that makes it difficult to hear your words. And now that you're wearing that mask, people are more likely to not like anything else you say and avoid your corner of the room. If you're really problematic, we have a safe space in another room, or we've developed technology that completely mutes you but it still sounds to you like you're talking. Enjoy the party!

If downvotes were intended for removing problematic discussion, that's one thing, but HN's position is that downvotes are fine for disagreement, too. So if you say something disagreeable, you are slowly filtered to irrelevance. The macro of that arrangement, which optimizes for discussion that the community will find acceptable and agreeable at the expense of contrarian thought or opinion, is apparently lost on everyone who I've discussed it with, so I've stopped bothering for the most part. Graying out of downvoted comments is honestly a symptom that contributes to perceptions of the valley, based on my conversations with people outside of this community -- I was present for a conversation about Thiel among midwest tech folks, and it was specifically brought up as cancerous to thought.

Good news is there are stylesheets that disable it. It isn't going anywhere, so if you feel like I do, adapt. That and showdead are useful.

That's why I upvote most of the grayed out comments. I hope other people do it too.

>Alternately, people who give advice likely experienced similar issues and overcame them.

Think about this like if someone was talking about fiscal matters. If you had someone who worked their way into the middle class telling poor people helpful tips to do the same, what is the chance they are overlooking factors in their success that aren't easily replicated for others or which was more based on luck?

I grew up in the middle of rural nowhere where most my old classmates hold minimum wage jobs if they have jobs. I worked hard to get ahead, but I was also assisted by things outside of my control. Natural talents and lucky opportunities being the two largest ones. Socially it's the opposite.

For example, contacting a stranger to ask for a ride can be as difficult for someone as learning a new programming language. Some can do it with no difficulty, others have a major block. What happens when someone tries a new hobby and realizes they are still isolated, even from the community of others engaged in the same hobby?

Underlying a lot of this, be it for making friends or finding a career, is the issue of learned helplessness.

I'm not in your boat, but you're perfectly describing my wife. I don't know why life has to be so hard for some people. I don't have any advice - just wanted to validate you and let you know someone out here 'gets it'. Just keep doing the best you can with whatever is possible each day.

Hi, I am in a similar situation, isolated in a village,I have disabilities, maybe we could exchange emails sometimes.

Hi. I am sorry to hear your situation is similar. My email is in my profile but I will be honest up front that I am dealing with so much right now that I wouldn't be a good friend and hate disappointing anyone so please don't expect much or feel slighted.

I understand, I have exchanged messages with a other person, it was like an email at the end of the week checking up on what happen that week.

I am not sure how to set emails public, I can't see your email, you can contact me at my_hn_id@gmail.com, I am not offended if you don't want to connect so don't worry about me.

Thanks. I know my email was there in the profile, even if cryptically in the info bit as others have written me. Maybe I changed a privacy setting inadvertently and will check. I dont want you to get spammed posting your email in the open here as they seem to even vacuum up attempts at ciphering them like that, so if you care about that or want to delete yours in the above post I have saved it.

I found it, but contact me when/if you feel you are in the mood. I know how it is, sometimes you want to be alone sometimes you hate how lonely you are.

Sure thing. I appreciate it :)

I think your first course of action is improving your attitude. You start out with a cry for help about your problems, depression, and loneliness. People respond, offering help, and you have a negative response to it. It may not seem like much, but people are more willing to help you, if you're willing to be helped. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, be positive, and take advantage of what others are offering.

You misunderstand me, I disagree, and I don't know how to change that. I have heard the "people are willing to help IF you do X,Y,Z" thing so often and have seen that even when I change and extend myself and expend great and limited energy to their requirements it doesn't work like you imagine and I find it really simplifies the complex set of issues I deal with and is victim blaming in the end. Sorry if I have offended you...I am explaining my position not trying to fight. I believe your intent is good and I do appreciate that intent. I just hope you can accept and believe me when I say I have "been there/done that" and would never choose to be defiant or screw my own life out of pride or attitude.

Be more positive, go outside your limited comfort zone. Even if you think you have zero interest in it, try it anyhow. What's the worst that can happen? You meet someone new, and waste a couple hours of your life? I'm not totally familiar with your disabilities, but look at Stephen Hawking, Christopher Reeves. I just saw a dude with no legs doing things on a skateboard, that 15 year old me would have dreamed of doing. You're not offending me, stop apologizing for everything. Get out , and do something.

We have an article about how these issues are structural and entrenched issues at the societal level and people offered superficial self-improvement advice to someone whose issues appear to be largely from profound health problems, which misses the point entirely.

I don't think offering friendship, and someone to talk to is superficial at all. If this is all missing the point, then the parent shouldn't be telling us all this on a public forum.

> A "remote social life" is not even close to the same thing and chats online or the phone with "disposable friends" and strangers who have a clear and easy disconnect from your real life don't fill the hole a lack of enduring, present human contact leaves and usually take precious energy with no real benefit.

Maybe this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anecdotally, I and others I know have formed deep, meaningful relationships with people online. I think the hardest part of that is finding small communities - i.e, it's hard to make meaningful connections in a sub-reddit filled with 100,000 people, but in niche forums and chatrooms, with userbases in the dozens, I think it's much more feasible.

I've been in this situation to worsening degrees for 15 years...It really upsets me to hear people say I am causing it (self fulfilling) or not doing it right. I am glad you were able to make connections online...it's not something that replaces that need in me. I need real life face to face interaction. It is also farther down the list than my immediate problems and having a new friend is not going to fix my life or even make it bearable right now...I know for some people solidarity in suffering helps but relationships of any kind drain me with all thats going on and I have to ration my energy. The loss of connections is just another effect of my major issues that piles on and without addressing those the rest can't change.

Sorry if I sound rude...I don't intend it. It's just so hard to hear the same "just get a hobby" or "just make friends online" or "you must just be doing it wrong since it works for me" stuff repeatedly. If it were something that worked for me I'd be doing it because this life is pure misery for me from most all angles.

You don't come off as rude and I didn't mean to imply you're causing it; sorry if my comment was upsetting. I was trying to point out that it's easy to get stuck in your kind of situation and become, for lack of a better word, pessimistic. Obviously everyone is different and, as you say, "online socialization" may just not fill that need for you (and others). Given the situation of relative isolation physically / geographically ("rural unconnected America"), I was only trying to offer the idea that connecting to people online can be possible for some, though it does take time and effort which may be hard to expend after years of feeling there is no return on that investment. Again, apologies if I painted with too broad a brush.

I'm not a programmer, cryptographer, sysadmin etc but I like tech and find this site refreshing because of the politeness and respect in interactions like this one. I can apologize and it will be taken at face value, and someone can apologize to me and its sincere. I've been missing that sort of mature intellectual/emotional honesty in interaction irl and online for a long time. So thanks :)

>I'm not a programmer, cryptographer, sysadmin etc

WELL THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM!

I'm a latecomer to two of those three things, but they're tremendous specs for shut-ins! Due to tons of moving, the most and best friends I've ever had have been people online, so maybe my psyche is too warped to feel the lack of physical interaction. In fact, I think the real world is a terrible place[0], and my ability to express myself is much greater here. But online social life is much like real life social life; friends come and go, enemies are eternal, and, if you don't try to meet new people, making new connections becomes harder. Enter programming and nerd stuff. I've become more disconnected from my online friends, most of them non-technical, as I sank deeper in an online introversion of stuff they can't relate to like makefiles and Linux. I've become less interested in things that aren't those things, eroding our common ground. I can't even hold conversations anymore unless they're about how awful Gnome 3 is! Conversely, contact with the VERY FEW nerdy friends I've had and still find is higher than ever, but that's a small crowd. And they can't like me that much because most of them are smarter than me, so all I do is leech them for knowledge, which is not how you build a healthy relationship, hesti -- it's gotta be a symmetric take AND give!

But they don't have to like me; I like them, and I'm locked in an eternal struggle of autism to feel several human emotions.

[0] https://youtu.be/Ctryg4zg8FU

OpenBSD user here.

A lot of people in Spain hang out by appearance, to show. Even a lot of people do this at bars to drink or have fake talks about soccer so they are not seed as nerds/freaks.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in society.

I would like to be more North-European: just hang out by pleasure, not from habit doing it meaningless.

>Sorry if I sound rude...I don't intend it. It's just so hard to hear the same "just get a hobby" or "just make friends online" or "you must just be doing it wrong since it works for me" stuff repeatedly. If it were something that worked for me I'd be doing it because this life is pure misery for me from most all angles.

I have found it enlightening to try to view fiscal and relational matters with the lens of the other. Imagine if I made a post telling a poor individual that they should "just go learn some job skills", "learn to code", or "they must be doing it wrong because I've found it easy to get a decent job". Such a post would be viewed as profane. Being a libertarian on fiscal matters gets me labeled as heartless, yet I find libertarian is the best approximate description of the system everyone operates on with regards to relational matters. I've heard many people describe the libertarian approach to helping others as "I've got mine, F you", which is the way I feel treated as a 'socially poor' person. To even bring up the topic of relationship resources/needs being unequal has gotten me some very negative labels in other online communities.

This is probably going to sound like terrible advice, but I'd pick up an MMO. If you're stuck in a rural area and have physical issues with travel or can't afford it, your options for face-to-face contact are pretty much nil. Games with a heavy social component at least get you some parts of human contact - chat, voice, group problem solving and objectives, something in common to discuss.

I agree, I've been part of very fulfilling online communities. I'd say the only bad thing about them was that for much of the interaction, it required a seat at my computer. There's something to be said for back porch beers, etc.

That, to no surprise, doesn't work for me with love relationships of course. My (now) wife and I had a long distance relationship and it was very, very difficult. Unlike the online communities, it was a struggle more than fulfilling - it left me longing for more, etc.

I don't think "deep, meaningful relationships with people online" can truly be effective as a solution until we solve the "endorphins/oxytocin/dopamine deficiency problems". As a species we evolved a ton of inter-related neural pathways that "feed" on inter-personal physical touch as a activator. (Everyone could use at least one 20 second hug a day to light up those pathways.) Loneliness is going to remain a problem, despite well formed and meaningful online relationship groups, so long as people remain touch deficient. It's quite possible we could medicate that visceral, species-wide need away in the near future, but at least for now, physical relationships are always going to have that profligate advantage of primal neural hormone joy that we need to feel less "lonely", even and especially in a crowd of (virtual) friends.

Go to church, what have you got to lose? With all its problems every church is filled with nice people and I guarantee with a few calls (probably 1) you will find someone that will pick you up and take you. No matter how rural you are, there is a church close by.

This can work up to a point. They are looking for something in return. Your belief, money, or both.

The church may be looking for those things; the churchgoers, however, not so much.

Q: Would you like to become a member?

A: No thank you. I'm an atheist who is just here for the social interaction and community.

How does this end well?

I actually don't see why it shouldn't. As mentioned above, most churchgoers are nice people, and I can't conceive of anyone throwing the atheist out on grounds of “convert or leave”.

That's pretty wishful (or perhaps naïve) thinking. A family member of mine literary hasn't spoken to me in over two decades because I told her I didn't believe in god when I was 12. She asked me out of nowhere, I said no, that was it, I was no longer to be in her life in any capacity. She also tries to meddle in my business telling other people I am not to be trusted because "you can only trust someone who fears god."

Its been my experience that most people who are devout enough to go to church are exactly the "convert or leave" type. Church is a very tribal place.

Not to mention that the type of people who want to spend their time doing church activities are people I find horrifically boring and have ZERO common ground with. May be less so if you're male.

> That's pretty wishful (or perhaps naïve) thinking. A family member of mine literary hasn't spoken to me in over two decades because I told her I didn't believe in god when I was 12. She asked me out of nowhere, I said no, that was it, I was no longer to be in her life in any capacity. She also tries to meddle in my business telling other people I am not to be trusted because "you can only trust someone who fears god."

I'm afraid I'm tempted to dismiss this as anecdote. This is one personal experience. That seems quite personal. That seems far more family-related than church-related.

> Its been my experience that most people who are devout enough to go to church are exactly the "convert or leave" type. Church is a very tribal place.

Not around here. Feels weird to "defend" it, I can't even remember when I actually last attended a service.

> Not to mention that the type of people who want to spend their time doing church activities are people I find horrifically boring and have ZERO common ground with.

Can we agree on the fact this has nothing to do with the initial controversy that churches would be unwelcoming to atheists? This only describes atheists' (well, yours, but you seem to intend to represent a global viewpoint) likely aversion to churches.

> May be less so if you're male.

I wish we didn't live in a world where this came up so often, but ok, now I'm this deep in the debate I will bite: what's this got to do with anything? Personal/local trivia or something deeper?

In that case probably nothing of value was lost.

life pro-tip: don't add superfluous details to answers that serve no purpose but to upset the questioner.

A: No, thanks.

will go over a lot better.

Better answer: Not right now. I'll pray about it and wait to hear from God.

A good one would enthusiastically welcome people like that.

I belong to one. My wife is a Christian and I am not. They do enthusiastically welcome me, which is consistent with what they should be doing in my opinion. Nobody pressures me to act in any way that I am uncomfortable with and rarely (only when I invite it) does anyone discuss my beliefs with me. I think that this church is unusual; they have a huge focus on being a "family". I would have never gone if not for my wife (it would be awkward), but it is very rewarding to me and I get to meet and befriend people who are very different from who I would meet otherwise (as a scientist/programmer type). It also provides many service opportunities and people to help.

Unitarian-Universalist churches have a lot of atheists.

The minister at our local UU church IS an atheist.

http://uuspokane.org/WP2/staff/rev-dr-todd-eklof/

You'd really like the 3rd act of the movie "Certain Women" (2016). It's about rural life for people with small, or non-existent support nets.

Two quick thoughts - a language class or a cooking class. No idea if those would be appropriate to your circumstances, however they exist all over, in a variety of intensities, and are things on my own "to-do" list. Shared w/good intentions.

I know you're getting a lot of unsolicited advice here, but I'd like to throw in my suggestion since you don't seem interested/capable of a lot of the suggested hobbies. I found myself in a similar situation in the past (health + geographical isolation) and becoming heavily involved and eventually and admin of a web forum was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I'm no longer involved, but it was a wonderful place with a really supportive community better than anything I've experienced in real life outside of college. If you find yourself on your computer for a large portion of the day anyway, it's a great way to make those hours more productive due to friendship :)

I'm also a middle-aged introvert. Outside of work, the only people I really talk to are my sisters, neither of whom live nearby. One thing that's helped me is fostering rescue dogs with a local organization. I only foster for a few days here and there, but it really makes a difference to feel some life around my apartment.

Loneliness might be the logical conclusion to a society going more and more towards metrics. Likes, dislikes, upvotes, downvotes. Dissenters are punished, perfection is idolized.

Research is pretty conclusive that to have tight friendships you need vulnerability to some degree, yet if people want perfection that implies invulnerability. If you accept these premises to be true, then it seems loneliness is inevitable.

As an aside, I also think income inequality might lead to more loneliness.

As to your last point, I think metrics have heightened inequality in general. Friend/follower count, number of likes, retweets. It all lets you attach a number to popularity and likeability and makes for a quick and simple hierarchy. Loneliness is easy when you see socializing through the lens of who's good and who isn't (and just based on how popularity works, it's probable that a lot of your friends at least look more popular than you).

Of course there have always been more or less popular or liked people, but I seem to recall it stinging less when it wasn't readily quantifiable.

Research is pretty conclusive that to have tight friendships you need vulnerability to some degree

I have to admit I don't quite understand this sentence, especially how research might define a "tight friendship" and "vulnerability". Can you provide some information about said research? This topic interests me.

I neither agree nor disagree with the statement that the research is conclusive, but Brené Brown[1] seems to have become the public face of research on vulnerability.

Her research seems to be mostly qualitative rather than quantitative.

[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability

I don't think you can have a really, really tight bond with someone if you never give them a chance to hurt you. If you don't share information about yourself that they could use to hurt you, then you haven't actually trusted them, and the bond you feel isn't as strong as it could be.

Yes, this makes sense as a hypothesis, it certainly feels right, but the parent comment was referring to research establishing a relationship between tight friendship and vulnerability. How are these things defined in such research, measured, etc.? That is what I am unable to understand.

Generally things like "self disclosure", "trust" and "commitment" are things that are highly correlated with strong friendship quality. I loosely put all of those under the umbrella of vulnerability as self disclosure and trust in particular generally mean you allow someone to use the information given for bad reasons potentially.

Here's a good starting point.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/146144804044331

I wonder if metrics are not a conclusion to us.

We often see society as a problem, so more and more we try to loosen our need for it. We have more flexibility to move, now more flexibility to speak to people without having much ties with them. We don't have to care much or suffer them if we don't want to.

Maybe we're crossing a line of diminishing returns (if not the case for a while already).

> We often see society as a problem, so more and more we try to loosen our need for it

I think that about sums up the "loneliness epidemic". Loneliness and social disconnection are exactly the results of seeking to loosen our need for society. Our society (regardless of where you live, the global monoculture is still there), is sick and we see it largely in Western post-industrial nations like the U.K. and U.S.A.

As more an more people realize the problems inherent to a postmodern, secular, capitalistic worldview, the more they intentionally disconnect to seek shelter from the onslaught of mixed messages, targeted advertising, disinformation campaigns, etc. , the more they realize that cutting themselves off is the only way out. I don't say this to explicitly bash capitalism or postmodernism - I see these statements as social facts that we're all stuck with for the time being. Despite U.S.'s place near the top of the list of social ills amongst industrialized nations (drug addiction, depression, obesity, bad Gini coeff, low life span, bad healthcare, etc.), it's worth saying that these and other problems still exist to some degree in other post-industrial nations. As we've steadily chipped away at traditional life, people have struggled to find replacements for family, religion, social outings, dating/marriage, work and play. While some people find success, other still are in limbo - raised in a world that no longer exists and unsure of how to bridge the gap into a world that offers fewer and fewer opportunities for an "analog" life.

Since modern life is primarily digital, the only escape from it is by intentionally seeking an analog existence. We can all see that excessive social media use, excessive email-checking, and constant connectivity cause social and emotional problems: addiction, feelings of inferiority, feeling drained, overall dissatisfaction. But the alternative is to purposely cut yourself off and suffer the other loneliness, where no one ever messages you, your crush never likes your photos, you never beat that person in a political argument on FB, you never see that cute picture of your friend's children or dog. At the cost of these things, you may gain back fun interactions with strangers, better catch-up conversations when you run into old friends who haven't been able to stalk you on social media, a more romantic first date when you finally talk to that person you've been seeing at the grocery store... At the risk of injecting my own experiences into this rant, the loss of social media in my life has precipitated a person who is more social when it comes time to be social and more at peace when it's time to be alone.

The solution to the broader problems though, of a society we feel we need to disconnect from, it would seem, is to start by fostering societies that we don't see as inherently problematic. Truly healthy societies don't breed drop outs, rebels, "lone wolves"... they breed people who want to get along and can at least stand each other enough to share some notion of the public good. How we do that is beyond me, though.

Much of what you said, discussions on post-industrial, post-modern societies with capitalistic incentives driving more-and-more societal aspects, echoes the sentiment from Daniel Bell's The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism.

I think building and theorizing a new monoculture is exactly the wrong place to start. Not that you are, you say at the end it is beyond one builds a truly healthy world/society.

I think leaning away from emotion and into metrics is the start.

I think Paulo Freire has the right framework to start viewing how this should go, though he would probably say "These are my ideas, make your own." And that's the key, in my opinion -- live by your own imagination, not on the rails that the world lays down (which usually are laid down by elite power players, not the public).

I'd say it's this unfettered freedom to do literally anything, seems to be a huge issue to me. It's displaced our own ability to imagine, and has us just doing things in the literal world, because that's what the rule book says.

One dude's freedom to make a rocket engine car meant someone else machine parts for a paltry wage and will never have the money to assemble a rocket engine in their garage let alone the entire car. That's how it has to be -- or so the story has gone.

But the rocket car guy and voices in the thread seem like that's exactly what we should be aiming for. OK, but do it without needing a huge factory manned by low-wage earners. Suddenly, Americans are less free, and chafe quite a lot at that notion. The world should be theirs, and if that means other workers in other nations have more of a say, well that can't be right. Or so the conversations I've been a party to for years have gone ("America went through a growing up phase. Those countries should too." as if there's anything more than social opinion requiring that it be this way.)

First world freedom for Rocket Car Guy, who mocks the notion that's absurd and should be regulated, meant a wage slave somewhere was the one doting on the actual mining, smelting, etc.

The same lack of introspection is all over this site. "Make more apps, build more datacenters. Cause I have to sign up more users." Get people to be "more digital". Despite that not being a physical law of reality.

It's contemporary vanity: obviously the world is becoming more digital, so we should lean in. Ignoring the reality of what that requires, and that it's rather a bit fascist to assume future folks would want to go that way. So here comes another global monoculture to fail in a generation.

>I also think income inequality might lead to more loneliness.

I'd say poverty just amplifies the feeling of loneliness. Japan has the same problem of loneliness [0] and they have a pretty good Gini coefficient compared to the rest of the OECD.[1]

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/world/asia/japan-lonely-d...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

A thought: good standards of living and equality may result in loneliness through everyone's relative comfort and needlessness of help. Companionship is achieved through mutual struggle.

I would say it is the opposite. Impoverished people have more need to interact with people in their immediate community in order to survive and for tribal knowledge. They also are more likely to stay within the same geographic location and less likely to be able to afford vacations away from their home (so they just chill at their neighborhood and welcome people over in their free time).

Educated, upper middle class people pay others to take care of things, buys everything online and searches the internet for information. They are more likely to move to a new city (so local relationships have less value since they may move in the future) and have expensive vacations or hobbies outside of the local neighborhood.

I've been going to a lot of meetups (from meetup.com) in the past year, and sadly I've come away pretty disappointed, for a number of reasons:

1 - I'm just not in the least bit interested in the overwhelming majority of meetups out there. So there really aren't a lot of interesting meetups for me to choose from.

2 - Way too many of the meetups are actually businesses in disguise. They're looking to sell you a class or get you to pay admission for an event. This might not be a big deal for someone with more disposable income, but it is often a deal breaker for me.

3 - Most meetups meet for just the event itself, and everyone leaves right afterwards, leaving no opportunity to interact with the people there.

4 - For the handful of a handful of meetups which are interesting, not businesses in disguise, and actually leave some time for interaction before/after the meetup: apart from the single shared interest that we all presumably have in the subject of the meetup itself, the people you meet are going to be pretty random and so the odds of making a genuine connection are still going to be pretty low, in my experience, especially if you're shy.

5 - Usually you don't see these people again until the next meetup, which is usually a month later. So you talk to these people maybe for an hour a month. Not much of a chance to make a connection.

Overall, I just really haven't had much luck with meetups, in terms of making friends. I've done better with dating sites, honestly. At least with those, I can be pretty sure before I even go to meet someone that we have a whole bunch of things in common, and can pretty quickly sense if there's some chemistry between us, and if not just move on to the next person. It's harder to do that with random people at meetups. Just my 2 cents.

I've had alot of luck with boardgame meetups. Atleast in my city there is no pressure to buy anything. They're typically weekly with more events interspersed throughout the month

I guess it depends on your interests, but I'd suggest going to meetups centered around activities that necessitate or strongly encourage socializing. I go to meetups to speak a different language, and I tend to make pretty good friends at those since the meetups typically revolve around just getting a meal and talking with everybody about life.

Aside from that, maybe you could try taking up a hobby you didn't think you'd be interested in? Pretty much any reasonably sized city seems to have meetups for learning how to salsa dance, for example, which is inherently a very social scene where people all get to know each other.

This has unfortunately been my experience with not just meetups, but other things where common wisdom says you can make friends, like volunteering. I volunteer every few weeks at a soup kitchen, but despite having done it for a couple of years, none of my fellow volunteers have become more than casual acquaintances.

In my experience, making friends at these sorts of things requires active work. It might be active work by someone else, but usually you're not that lucky. You usually need to really ask others if they'd like to meetup yourself. Also you need to be very prepared for them not being interested (like say dating) and be ready to hop to other groups/circles if necessary. (Or even better, just fan out and meet many groups simultaneously and only start going regularly if you meet people you like.)

I'm not saying that you're _not_ doing it or that this is easy (socially, financially, temporally, etc.), but I do think it _is_ easy to just pass through life as a bit of an outside observer, be it at work, volunteering, or basically any other social engagement. (I guess this is what the main article is all about...)

I think loneliness is especially bad for men as we are prone to hide our mental health and true feelings/emotions, not seek medical attention when we need it, and generally have less intimate discussions with friends as compared to women. So a lot of men end up suffering loneliness for a long period of time without any emotional support.

It feels like one of those things which creeps on you, and before you know it, you aren't attending social events, you don't have much energy or confidence, your perception of others becomes skewed, and it all seems pretty helpless.

Regardless of whether its church or a weekly Meetup.com event or a Recreational Sports League, there is an immense benefit to going somewhere where one finds fulfillment while incrementally getting to know a community. Just by showing up and not being a dick, strangers become friends, and often times even more. It's something I always recommend to people in their 30s who are finding it hard to make friends after college. My friend doesn't believe in the Buddhist religion but has attended the same temple for many years, and it's been incredibly helpful for him in terms of making strong social connections.

> It feels like one of those things which creeps on you, and before you know it, you aren't attending social events, you don't have much energy or confidence, your perception of others becomes skewed, and it all seems pretty helpless.

"How did you get lonely?"

"Gradually, then suddenly."

... I wonder if there aren't many aspects of life like this.

"Gradually then suddenly"

This phrase, it's context, and your follow up thought have affected me in a raw and uncomofortable way I wasn't expecting today.

And similar to yours to me. Many thanks.

In what ways? I'm interested to hear what it made you think of.

It just connected with the losses and changes of getting older and less self sufficient, and how those have been magnified in me since I was struck down before 30 with serious health issues so I experienced them earlier than I should have. It's hard to believe how long its been looking back. I feel my life sort of froze in many ways and the wounds most definitely haven't healed with time.

"Gradually, then suddenly" just seems to fit this and so many aspects of life. I suspect many people can relate.

Given that perspective it is quite a somber phrase. Assuming you are living in America, do you feel like the standard 'things you should care about' package offered to us by government, cultural-shaping institutions, and the economy-shaping institutions is rather lack-luster when the standard distractions do not apply?

I guess more specifically, given the variance off the 'standard american life' you have experienced, most of the 'escapes' don't quite fit the mold of your experiences. I know there isn't really a question there - I guess, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear your thoughts on those ideas.

I'm always afraid of the negative attention with such political statements, but I most definitely feel left behind by America and am not a fan of it's priorities. I did what I was "supposed" to, paid into the system, worked hard, and when I needed help it wasn't there and common things available to me before, like medical care/insurance, were suddenly out of reach. I find that incomprehensible in a first world nation.

I have seen friends in similar positions in countries with robust social systems rebuild their lives and live/contribute again in ways not possible without that healthcare/education/living support. I lived abroad for some time and was able to access medical care there I simply cannot afford here but wasn't able to emigrate fully. The "rugged individualism" attitude of the culture doesn't seem to have much room for people once they lose their independence whether it's their fault or not...which frankly I don't think should matter...but especially hurts since I am not at fault for my situation.

I gave up arguing about it a long time ago as I've never succeeded in changing anyone's view and just get depressed at the debate. Only suffering it directly seems to ever change people, and some of those people still seem to attack other victims rather than the cause of the issue. It's a bigger problem than I can affect but I hope one day people aren't left behind in such ways.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, although I didn't intend, specifically, for them to seem political. I think your statements lie at the core of American society. My asking was more a sociological inquiry than a political one, largely because I agree with you, the problem is one that stems from all U.S. institutions with any large amount of power. Unfortunately I think inciting any large scale change is impossible.

So that brings me to my next inquiry, aside from possibly planting seeds in the minds of others to think about the world from a vastly different perspective, what is there left? Many live comfortably never paying any attention to the spectacle that is our life, our society, our value - unfortunately, as you pointed out, many people will not look for more substance unless their life derails from 'how it is supposed to go' (the very norm of which is pitched from said institutions with influencing power). What is it that brings you happiness or awe? Satisfying your curiosity for knowledge? Writing out your thoughts on the world? I am of the increasing position that happiness can only be rooted in things of great depth, substance, and near-cosmic importance. I'm just curious to your thoughts.

I've pretty much been smashed down to a Flatland version of Maslow's bottom levels so the deeper philosophical ideas of how to fix anything seem beyond me. I have no idea what there is left in that regard because even those closest to me who supposedly loved me and have seen what I have suffered have all worn down into that distancing/victim blaming thing that seems to common in long term suffering. Were it not for a few amazing people I have met over my lifetime, only one of which who was family and who is deceased, I would not find it easy to believe anyone really cared about others. I am aware enough to know my views aren't all knowing fact...I just don't see how this country is going to change given how emotionally deep and how ingrained in personal identity the national culture is for so many.

What brings me happiness? All sorts of things. Seeing my cat play. Seeing good people happy and healthy. Being warm and having a lower pain day. A good book. In the past I loved exploring and travel and was very active. Losing physical health was a major blow and I found the greatest happiness I have ever known in a long hike or run, or days wandering through a new city non-stop, where I was able to push myself physically and mentally to exhaustion, yet not suffer lasting pain for it...I miss that vitality so much it hurts. But perhaps what i miss most of all is the belief I had countless options before me, and no matter what life brought it would work out and I would have my loved ones around me. The innocent naivete of youth.

Your perspective has really resonated with me. Thank you for sharing. I know it might have felt vulnerable at times, but you have added to the way I see and think about the world, and I hope the change in perspective amounts to me being more true to myself and others.

The world would be a better place if we all slowed down and invested in the community instead of the individual.

I checked this out as I heard the phrase before. "Gradually, then suddenly" seems to be originally a quote from Hemmingway in The Sun Also Rises about bankrupcy:

“How did you go bankrupt?" - "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.”

It is quoted then in the context of depression in the movie Prozac Nation:

"Gradually, then suddenly." That's how depression hits. You wake up one morning, afraid that you're gonna live.

Hemmingway's The Sun Also Rises is an amazing novel for anyone who has not read it. Some truly amazing characters and social dynamics are laid out in that book. I finished it in one sitting when I read it a few years back, it was a page-turner in a weird, unmatched kind of way.

Interesting little piece of trivia. I'm on vacation and just finished reading The Sun Also Rises 2 days ago and I'm now reading "The Awakening" by Kate Chopin and just encountered this passage:

"They became intimate and friendly by imperceptible degrees, and then by leaps."

Which reads very similar to the Hemmingway passage. Maybe he stole it ;)

I agree with you regarding the benefits of finding a group to meet with. I was in an accident last year and shattered my spine. The place I worked fired me the very next day, right after I got out of surgery. I've spent a year now cooped up in my house. I've never been a very social individual, but a couple of months ago, I wandered down to a church building that is about a block from my house. The people were welcoming and I found myself going down there more and more frequently. They started offering free classes, about three weeks ago, on how to run your own business. Since it has been nigh unto impossible to find regular work, I started going to the classes to work on starting my own thing. I wasn't aware there was a problem with loneliness in my life until I started taking those classes and making friends with the other people attending. It has made an incredible difference.

I saw mentioned here that men are quick to give up friends, with work & family & wife's social calendar there really isn't much time for anything else. I need to make an effort to make friends cause really all I ever see is work colleagues and other parents of our children's friends.

I had a family for almost ten years, and then suddenly I only had part of my family once in awhile. It's especially hard to get back into that mode when it's not where you planned to be or even wanted to be.

I hear this man. After my mother passed away three years ago, it was like the entire family disappeared somehow. Never imagined how things would change.

Mothers really keep the family together, even in their old age.

Absolutely. She was a social and emotional hub for us and one of my best friends...fuck. Life's a damn trip.

My mother is (thankfully) still alive, so I hope I can take the naive advice I'm going to give you: you could try to become that hub. I know when my brothers initiate something (like a surprise birthday party for Mom), we're all excited to jump on board.

Good advice. Thanks for that.

Now that I started to think about it how does one create deep relationships? It never occurred to me that I should be taught these things. It has just sorta happened, at times at least. Nowadays I only wonder how I used to be much closer to people but the idea of creating stronger friendships is vague. Is is just by hanging around long enough with other people? Or should we actively seek to bring up issues that we care about and/or currently dealing with? How the hell did I know how to do it when I was a child?

Funny thing happened recently as I was on a company vacation and talked mostly small-talk bullshit the whole time. Only when I and my coworker were taking the same bus down to the city he actually brought up a deep and personal issue. It made me wonder how did I became so closed-up and lost my willingness to talk about things that are deeply meaningful to me? Is it because I never felt that others would listen? Or that they would shun me? What I was afraid of?

It's for sure a downward spiral once it starts and your abilities to make those deep connections with other people start deteriorating. I think we should be taught better how friendships are actually made and that talking about feelings and deep thoughts is ok. The cultural education here seems to be failing to teach the right things.

I think one of the best ways to create deep relationships is to actively help others.

Your co-worker mentions that they are moving next month: offer to help move. Your friend's kids are sick and they are stuck at home caring for them: bring them dinner. If you have some older friends (maybe from church) there are often things around the house they might need help with.

Once you have helped someone once, your name will come up in their mind next time they are in a tough situation. This is almost the definition of a "deep relationship": a person who you know you can rely on and who will help you if you really need it. Other "shallow" relationships are people who you just like to talk to or go have a drink with.

This is exactly how you do it in adulthood.

> I think one of the best ways to create deep relationships is to actively help others.

You can help someone directly, and you'll become close to that someone. Or as a group help someone and you'll become closer to that group. Service really is the magic bullet.

I have rewarding conversations with people I go on a walk with or have a drink with. If was helping people who are unavailable emotionally because they have some other shit to figure out I don't think I would get as much out of it.

And yet, nobody wants to hang, or even meet up for a simple dinner. Am I the only one who makes an effort to keep up with friends, with little reciprocity?

I'm very introverted. That, and a couple of health issues, resulted in me being alone during the past few years. I know it's not normal/healthy, but as weird as it sounds, I don't feel unhappy. I enjoy being alone most of the time, and during the rare moments when feel a bit lonely, standup comedy and TV sitcoms make that feeling go away.

I spend my time writing, learning to code, working on my startup, listening to audiobooks, practicing digital art. Most of the time I'm having fun and enjoying myself (when health doesn't get in a way), though having a couple of buddies would probably make my life better.

The fact that I live in russia doesn't help finding friends, I feel like all the people I'd like to talk to live in the US/UK/Canada, not here. I understand that rationally this can't be true, but I really have no idea where to search for people I'd have a lot in common with. I like people on hacker news and reddit, I like people who's blogs and books I read, I like people who's youtube channels I watch, but I've never met anyone like that in "real life".

I could put myself out there and go to meetups or courses until I find someone I like, but the combination of introversion and the fact that my life is kinda nice as it is, makes it feel like it's not worth the effort. Also I really hope that I'll find a way to move elsewhere, so it's not like I'll build lasting relationships here.

Maybe one day I'll move to NYC and end up getting my social life on point, but meanwhile, my projects and the internet keep me pretty happy and satisfied.

I felt the same way until I found a couple girlfriends and eventually got married.

I still enjoy being alone, though I do feel vaguely sad that my wife isn't with me during some of that time, especially if it's for days in a row.

But being alone doesn't make me sad in itself.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that not everyone is made the same, and some of us don't really have a problem being by ourselves for extended periods. Others have serious problems with it.

>during the rare moments when feel a bit lonely, standup comedy and TV sitcoms make that feeling go away.

As someone from the US/UK/Canada, I hear you! These guys are my emotional support animals. https://youtu.be/lHmMv9eMOZo

> I feel like all the people I'd like to talk to live in the US/UK/Canada, not here.

I know exactly what you mean. The internet means we become much more accustomed to associating with people with similar interests. I have had a similarly hard time, even having lived all over the US. It's just difficult, especially when your interests are things that are very "independent" -- computers, learning, music (at least for me, since it's not generally the type you can go to a bar and listen to).

The people I'm closest to are all purely coincidental.

Try software competitions maybe? It's really the only place I can think of where I've felt like I could get on with a large portion of the people, but even then I still feel like I have a very different personality.

It's a vicious cycle. I consider myself pretty extroverted, but I just am bored by most people. I'm sure everyone else who I might become friends with has the same problem, and thus none of us ever meet.

Yes it is, especially in the US. A "successful" person lives in subdivisions, cul-de-sacs, or nimby enclaves, we're in our cars most of the time to get anywhere because everything is too far to walk except for exercise. There's little expectation of shared culture other than the weather, and on top of that there are very few spaces that people can mix together without sharing a hobby.

If you go out to a suburban or rural area, you have 4 socializing options: the grocery store (not very good for actually meeting people), the bar (if an alcoholic and can afford it), the church (if religious), or the school (if you have kids). Guess what happens to most 18-30 year olds with no kids in those areas? They either move, become religious zealots, get addicted to drugs, have a family at a young age with dicey economic prospects, or completely lose themselves to video games. We need to create better, denser spaces where culture and socialization can thrive in american towns and cities.

If I wanted to be social I wouldn't even know where to start. There's nowhere to go to hang out and meet people. Folks work and then go home and stay in their houses (UK commuter town). The previous generation might have gone to the pub (bar) but those have been turned into restaurants so even that doesn't work anymore.

I even start thinking about going online as the best available option to be RL social. horror

I think if we want people to be more social we need to create RL places for them to go. Where everyone knows the score - you go to this place, hang out, chat to each other, play a game, have a drink, have food, etc.

The previous generation also went to church. A sizable minority of the current generations still do, though it seems to be impolite to discuss or recommend.

I wouldn't say impolite, just unnecessary. Church services are generally for people who adhere to that religion, or are investigating it. I would imagine that most people in those categories already do attend church.

Church attendance has been the biggest social event of the week for perhaps the majority of people in Europe for perhaps the last 10 centuries.

Now that most people are fed up with dogmatism and theism the social aspect is gone as a side effect.

We need a replacement.

An interesting experiment was carried out in the eastern block: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Culture

> fed up with dogmatism and theism

I was raised religious. I too became entranced with seeking the truth; however, secularism does not have the same 'social-networks as a side-effect' institutions as religion does.

Many want to hate on religion, but even the religious would say enduring the dogma for the kind, accepting social interactions that occur before and after is just what one does.

Check out your local Parkrun, most go to a local cafe or something afterwards and you have a built-in conversation starter. All ability levels welcome!

When my friends moved away to pursue new jobs last year, I was left with no friends within 100 miles. I joined a club that plays board games together every Friday, a rock climbing gym and I started volunteering at a library. There are opportunies if you live in a large city and are open to new hobbies.

I'd recommend taking an improv class, you'll build a lot of skills needed for spontaneous interactions. Commitment to building these skills will have a snowball effect on your social life.

I'm assuming you have neighbors, is there any reason why you can't invite them over for dinner, bake them something, or simply introduce yourself?

Where ever I've lived I always made friends with my neighbors. These are people you're next to every day and you share a living space, might as well get acquainted with them. No they aren't going to care about all your interests and hobbies, but then again most people in life won't either.

I think it's extremely healthy to have friends of different backgrounds and walks of life, and being friends with your neighbors is one way to do this.

Try couch surfing. You can meet new people without much effort.

> If I wanted to be social I wouldn't even know where to start.

Even if you aren't religious, churches are a great way to meet new people. We have a few atheists who come to our church activities just for the social aspect of it and we are glad to have them.

There are still meetups, adult classes, and volunteer work.

If you are at all bent that way I recommend the latter. Even if you don’t hit it off with anyone the positive energy is good for lifting your mood and improving your outlook.

If you have a local game store, try picking up a tabletop game or TCG like Magic.

Meetup.com. Find something you know or want to know, and join a group about it. Show up regularly. You'll get to know the others that show up regularly and being to bond with them.

I joined a Meetup group for learning Japanese and went a half dozen times, and then just stopped going. I still consider going back, and I feel a little bad for abandoning them... Even after like a year or 2 now. (I also want to continue learning Japanese, so that's some of the pull, but I feel bad about the people there, too.)

If you don't have a skill you want to learn or practice, there are groups for things like board games, too.

Tinder, OKCupid. Convert them to real friends by meeting up for lunch, dinner, game night, whatever.

What did you think of the Jo Cox commission? There might be something near you soon. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/16/may-appoints...

I lived in a long stay backpackers hostel for a while.

Socialising there was a lot like the place your'e describing. There were a lot of solo travelers who knew literally nobody in the city. You'd end up making friends without even trying, you'd sit down for dinner at the table with a stranger and you'd make a friend by the time you finished tea. If you wanted to go out to town, you'd just join in with the group drinking. There was always people playing cards or board games, or watching a movie.

It was an amazing social experience. The only (large) downside is that it's all temporary. Everybody is only staying for a few months, before they move on to the next place. I met some lifelong friends there (or I assume they will be), but they're scattered all over the world now. Great for when I travel, not so great for socialising on a Saturday afternoon.

I guess university was similar. I made a lot of friends through university events, parties, and just being in the same lab studying. We make most of our friends at school and university, and keep them for life usually. Once we become professionals and join the full time workforce, there's diminishing opportunities to meet new people.

I recently moved countries and it has been extraordinarily hard to meet new people.

As a counter-point to the majority of great comments so far, I've been alone for 18 months building an online business and haven't felt nearly as lonely as I did working in my previous job and surrounded by people.

Physical Loneliness, i.e. unwelcome solitude, can be crushing. However there exists a deeper, less visible loneliness as well. A mental isolation of one from one's truth: a job one hates, a partner one no longer loves, friends one has outgrown, a path one no longer wishes to thread.

At the end of the day, which is more painful—and more common—I wonder?

A quote from a truly beautiful article* on this subject springs to mind:

> Now and then, especially at night, solitude loses its soft power and loneliness takes over. I am grateful when solitude returns.

*https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/double-solitu...

Related listening from WBUR's On Point:

http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2018/01/23/the-loneliness-epidem...

Vivek Murthy, former surgeon general, answering to "Why is it important to use that word (epidemic)?"

> We have used the word 'epidemic' to refer to infectious diseases that have spread in populations, but what we see with loneliness is that it is impacting far more people than many of the infectious diseases that we have worried about in the past that we have termed epidemics. So, you know, this is an epidemic just by virtue of the sheer number of people that this is impacting and how significantly it has spread in the population.

This one is a little older but also relevant: http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2017/03/23/men-middle-age-friend...

The biggest rub is this - people say we don't put enough effort into initiating/maintaining friendships, I've tried that. Maybe 1 in 10 appreciate the effort, most people just don't care. I guess it is a numbers game.

I don't see any short or long term solution for this. It is only going to get worse, with people spending more and more time to make less and less money and constantly under stress. We should stop worshipping work (especially in the U.S) as if that is the most important thing in life. Any time I see people boasting about the number of hours they put in, it annoys me to no end.

As a man in his 30's who has dealt with loneliness and mild depression on a fairly Two things that I have found to be extremely helpful are:

1) See a therapist (when needed). Therapists have helped me to get out of some of my roughest patches. Even in our society, there can be a lot of shame associated with seeing a therapist, and I'll admit that I've avoided seeing one in the past due to that shame. But it has definitely helped when I felt stuck.

2) Join a men's group (if you're male). There are some great organizations that have regular men's groups. It's powerful to meet regularly with a group of men and having the chance to share your feelings and emotions and work through issues. I found one through The Mankind Project, but there are a number of groups out there that offer them.

Any examples of organizations you could share?

Sometimes I feel like social media actually makes us more lonely and disconnected from others.

You're not alone. In that thought.

This phenomenom has a name: it's called: The "social network paradox". (social networks are anti-social)

TC wrote a whole article about it: https://techcrunch.com/2011/08/28/the-social-network-paradox...

From the article: "Therein lies the paradox of the social network that no one wants to admit: as the size of the network increases, our ability to be social decreases."

For this reason I've a tiny community of close friends and family on Path (remember that) where we socialize. The slogan is "what's on Path stays on Path". It really works well, it's like Facebook in the early days.

It's not a feeling, it's a fact. We've created an entire generation of socially inept and depressed, due to only seeing the world through curated media. Tons of news coverage on this lately.

It's one of the reasons why I stopped logging into Facebook and Instagram a year ago. I realized I wasn't actually feeling better having used it and that the friends I truly cared about kept in touch via instant messaging / email.

When you take away the effort to meet people, you naturally put in less to interactions

It is. Get off of it. Ask cashiers how they are doing before they talk to you. Smile at strangers. Make small talk when standing around. Eventually you will find someone who is not indoctrinated into these isolation chambers tossed at us by corporations profiting off of our attention. When you do find someone on the same wavelength (perhaps it might be me!) you can enjoy, even if briefly, a real human interaction - eye contact, smiling, and general positivity in this increasingly more digitized, isolated world.

Write letters to your loved ones. Ask friends out to get coffee or dinner to talk about life.

The world needs more ludd-lights (my term for luddites, but not so extreme) now more than ever.

If you don't fear being looked at like you have a third eye or people thinking you are a weirdo, then by all means do this.

While you are absolutely correct that people will think you are weird - what does it matter? Having small talk with someone in line at the grocery store is not to create a lifelong friend (although that really is a potential), it is to spread social kindness and communal feeling. The upside, real interaction with individuals who value it, heavily outweighs the downside, a stranger thinking you are weird (you need not do more than dress 'out of style' for this to be the case, really).

My experience is largely against what you describe, however. At least in the major city I live, I have literally been thanked, with a genuine smile - one of those real smiles that begins in the eyes - and gratitude, by cashiers when I ask, before they speak to me, how they themselves are doing. Literally countless times. I see these people quite often, as they work at places I frequent. They remember me and we, over time, learn more about one another. May aim was not to be their friend, or even acquaintance, just to build a sense of community.

Small talk is the fastest way I've bootstrapped myself into outrageously diverse social circles. Plenty of encounters with closed off people uninterested in me? Yes. Plenty of encounters that went well, spread some smiles, with people I've never seen again? Yes. Plenty of people I have sustained contact with, who are now close friends of mine? Not plenty, but a handful that made all the other encounters worth it.

And regardless, what is the alternative? I have to find my friends, acquaintances, strangers interested in similar things, love interests, and mating partners online? No thanks, call me a weirdo please.

>Having small talk with someone in line at the grocery store is not to create a lifelong friend

No, it is to create an immediate enemy (I'm only half-joking)

Yes it does, I have a comment on that very thing and how it relates to the drug epidemic [here](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16449876) you might be interested in.

"You see, loneliness is the price we have to pay for being born in this modern age, so full of freedom, independence, and our own egotistical selves." - Sōseki, Kokoro

Do you recommend this book? Is this a core theme of the novel? I've never heard of it, but I'd love to read about thoughts on social isolation caused from modernism that are 101 years old!

I definitely recommend the book. If I had to say what the core theme was (without spoiling anything), I suppose I'd say "how a person, out of fear of loneliness, can force themselves deeper into it - like quicksand".

You can read it online here, if you'd like:

http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/ns/soseki.html

One is that societies throughout the world have embraced a culture of individualism. More people are living alone, and aging alone, than ever. Neoliberal social policies have turned workers into precarious free agents, and when jobs disappear, things fall apart fast. Labor unions, civic associations, neighborhood organizations, religious groups and other traditional sources of social solidarity are in steady decline. Increasingly, we all feel that we’re on our own.

I think this is on point.

When people don't feel safe to be themselves at work, the place where they spend most of their waking hours - it can really dampen your mood.

In the past, workers were treated poorly, but there was a sense of camaraderie, it was 'us vs the man', a sense of belonging, even if it was in mutual misery. Nowadays, it's worker vs worker for the ever-shrinking number of positions.

That's the crux of it I feel - when you're playing a zero sum game [0] with the people you're meant to build emotional connections with, it is very hard to feel good about it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game

A big chunk of this question straddles the philosophical/semantic divide. We consider emotional ailments, health issues in our times. In that sense, "yes" by definition, if we're seeing a spread of it. It also doesn't take much proving to convince me that loneliness (the physical state, and the emotional lonliness) is related to depression and other emotional states.

There's a completely nonsemantic point on lonliness causing physical ailments too, and I think the evidence here is as convincing as anything related to happiness and mental health.

Sometimes we think too hard. Put a chimp or sheep or donkey into a bad social setting (no peers, peers change daily, peers hate you...) and they will show signs of distress. Create an environment where these are more prevelant, the ailments will be more prevelant. People too.

Lonliness is related to people's relationship s. These have changed. Community is weaker, as our it's institutions. Modern society is more indivualistic, with less social obligation... or contact above a very basic level of commitment.

Do you send your kids to clean out ms hegarty's shed, because your aunt told you that she needs help and was good to your mum? Culture has changed, and many of the loneliness-combating relationships are gone.

IMO, corporate life has crowded out everything else. This is another point I'm confident about but can't substantiate: work relationships are very low nutrition, and they form most of many of our diets. Some people don't even have that.

On May's department of lonliness... What "normally" helps prevent lonliness, is friends, neighbors, family, community.... our modern world has a lot less of that. I don't think the answer is government institutions instead. I think the answer is social institutions. Maybe May should focus on cheerleading instead of doing, try to encourage social institutions that exist, or could.

If anything the opposite is true: severe lack of alone-time. I'm surrounded by humans all the time, even in your time alone you can't get away from people due to IM, social media, etc.

I try to minimise the amount of social activity as much as possible, but I'm still getting overloaded and am slowly going crazy.

This is exactly how you don't do science!

Same for me. I used to work from home and did a lot of stuff after work together with people. Now I am working at an open office and due to noise and constantly interacting with people I am way too exhausted in the evening to do anything. I just want to be alone in peace. The result is that my social life has almost stopped and I feel quite lonely.

That's just your personal experience and not an objective one. I'm lonely for severe lack of being around humans all the time, and when I am around humans they're often distracted by some form of entertainment.

There's nothing that indicates either of our experiences can be generalized.

"There's nothing that indicates either of our experiences can be generalized."

Please don't try to generalize. We all have very different needs and what works for one person doesn't work for the other. Acknowledgement and respect of this would be true diversity and inclusion.

I'm confused by what you mean. I was arguing against generalization in this case?

It sounded to me like you would like to find a generalization. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

The tendency to generalize things is one of my pet peeves around health issues, physical or mental. Some things work for everybody but a lot of things may work for one person, but not the other.

You could try using a productivity app like StayFocusd[1] to set it up so you can only access the website once or twice a day. If it's truly an emergency people will call you.

You can also try logging out of Facebook/Email and only checking it once a day. Or just plain making time to turn off your phone for a few hours on the weekend.

[1] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stayfocusd/laankej...

The problem is more that I am forced to sit in an office all day. As I said I already minimise social contact, so I don't have a Facebook account (never had one) and while I do have a Twitter account I don't use it to follow or interact with anyone I know personally, mainly following some companies.

Regardless, I am forced to interact with people in a social setting way too much. For example, my brother had his birthday 2 weeks ago and I have to go there for a couple of hours. Next week is my mothers birthday and she wants to take us to a restaurant, I really don't want to be in a restaurant surrounded by humans, it's just too much. I've been dreading it for weeks and can't wait for it to be over. Unfortunately, every time one of those events is finally over, another one presents itself.

If I ever won the lottery, I would buy a cabin somewhere in the middle of nowhere and that would be the last any human would have seen of me.

Ah. You had mentioned social media and IM so I figured you'd be using them.

Look for remote work and make your cabin dreams come true? You still have to interact with people, but a lot less?

You can be lonely while being surrounded by people. It's that feeling of alienation that you feel when dealing with people who idk, you are forced to deal with but have nothing in common with. It's all the background noise of living in a large city.

it's not about the number of people you are surrounded by but the depth and nature of relationship with them. Wasting energy showing off one's own conformity and following other people's conformity to society's current trend for what makes you a valuable person is bound to eventually make you crazy.

I figure that If you have the bare necessities covered (roof over your head, enough income for surviving) then you're already in a good position to reassess and build your happiness on foundations which are more solid than how many likes you receive on social media.

Yes, it's difficult. When I first graduated college, I moved to an area where I didn't know anybody. It took years, but I eventually joined some activity groups on Meetup, got better at dating, and eventually got married. Now I'm more focusing on my career. Having social support is absolutely necessary in life.

> I don’t believe so, nor do I believe it helps anyone to describe it that way.

^The op-ed writer's buried lede.

I'm conflicted about socialising. It seems at best shallow and trivial. At worst downright exploitative. It seems like a politician's game, or a gangster's.

Yet occasionally I enjoy the warmth of catching up with an old friend.

'The ape-descendant will greet [me] in return, but in deference to a million years of evolution, he will not attempt to pick fleas off [me]; Earthmen are not proud of their ancestors and never invite them round to dinner.' (Douglas Adams)

Age? I'm a lifelong loner in a 'healthy sense', know plenty of people but could always pick when I wanted to do my stuff or meet people. At 30, I sort of became bored of my own company and now prefer to be with other people & forget about myself, it wasn't like this before. I'd just spend uncountable hours reading on everything and it really hooked me, reading, drawing, programming, learning history, documentaries... Like, everything. But I don't feel like this anymore, I think I dried my curiosity somewhat and have gotten fed up.

I'm headed this direction as well. It seems like I'm getting so much more out of even the most basic social interaction than a TV show or documentary.

Socializing is a game, but that doesn't mean you can't play it with genuine, mutually beneficial, good intentions.

It most certainly is a game, and while I enjoy making others laugh when given the chance, when on the lookout for real interaction I just pay attention to the share of conversation in an interaction. Someone who asks no questions, talks too much, lacks eye-contact, says no goodbye - they are merely just being social 'just cause' and are, unfortunately, taken off of my list of people I care to be social with.

If you are unable to detect when someone has no interest in getting to know you, and merely wants to leave you with some impression of their social superiority, just pay attention to how much they talk. If they never once get to know you, then do not waste your time with them.

There are plenty of great people who are kind and caring - ask questions to people and see if they are willing to open up and listen for a change.

As someone that struggles with this, I've noticed a sort of pattern for those who suffer from loneliness as well. Just some observations from a few of my friends that would identify with loneliness too:

1. We either work from home, or work the night shift. Even working the second shift has had such a detrimental effect in terms of no longer going out for happy hours, never having conversations in passing, and never getting to participate in meetings, interviews, etc. I think it takes a certain person to want to work those hours, and I'm slowly starting to understand why there is a shift differential.

2. Having your own set of friends, not co-workers, and not your signifiant others "friends". Life was far better in College if nothing more than all the friends I had. Now friends are usually co-workers and there isn't such a strong bond.

3. Choosing non-social hobbies. I'd even consider the gym a pretty isolated activity, as most people don't talk there, and it's such a serious environment. I tried crossfit for nothing more than the social aspect of it, and felt it was a much better environment than lifting in the corner with earbuds in.

4. Exercise. Of all the people I've talked to about this, none of them exercised, myself included. I read that it has such huge implications on the makeup of the brain, and have seen the results myself. If I can go a few weeks of actually working out, not just pushups here or there, but actual sweat inducing, blood pumping workouts, the effects cary on into the week. I'd also lump in water in there too, since I've gone months with drinking Soda/RedBull/Coffee. All anecdotal of course.

I wonder about the exercise thing. For the past few years, I've exercised fairly frequently. And, yet, I still struggle with feelings of loneliness and depression. I think exercise helps a little but maybe less than people like to imagine. As you imply with your other points, you probably have to address loneliness on multiple fronts in order to have a lasting impact on it.

There are a slew of research papers on the benefits of exercise for the clinically depressed, anxious, etc [1]. Most of the research boils down to the fact that, with enough rigor in the exercise regime (typically linked to one's heart rate passing a specific threshold), endorphins are released in the brain, providing a similar positive feeling as would morphine.

Of course, exercise will not cure depression, or remove loneliness altogether. But, as I'm sure you know, battling depression is more about having a repertoire of daily habits that shift one's focus to the positive aspects of life. There is no silver bullet, and it truly is a daily effort to ensure positivity, and more importantly self-love, is reached.

[1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=endorphins+exercise+dep...

I guess my main point was what you're saying: exercise will not cure depression.

I think it's a behavior of people who are struggling with depression to constantly seek out a single answer to their problems. In that sense, I believe anything, no matter how beneficial on paper, can eventually be used as a fixation which feeds the depressive cycle. This has been my experience as I've struggled with depression in my life. Exercise is no exception to this pattern.

I was in that shoe and definitely felt lonely until I went to a summer camp for adults just outside of Toronto called Camp Reset. It was a digital detox, nicknames only, no work talk weekend event where we played, danced, had meals together, did workshops without ever learning eachothers real names and talking about work. My life changed after that weekend.

I can genuinely say the past 2 years have been filled with joy and growth because of the community that formed after going to Reset.

I highly encourage those of you who are hungry for a community to find similar adult camps in your area and dive in. It was scary at first not knowing anyone, but now the community is 400 people strong and I have deep meaningful relationships with 2-3 dozen people I DID NOT KNOW 2 years ago. In fact I now live with two housemates I met at that camp.

There's a similar camp in California called Camp Grounded. For anyone interested in Reset, i'm happy to answer further questions. I plan to go this year as a co-creator and not just a participant.

edit: only after leaving the camp we got to know each other by real names and professions and the range of professions are far and wide.

What's the point of nicknames?

Because you can!

It's fun. You get creative, it's a chance to build a persona and perhaps under that persona discover your authentic voice.

A) I'm in the midst of some broad-based research around loneliness and technology, and if you'd be willing to take a 5 minute survey, or even better, spread it beyond the tech community, I'd appreciate it so much. I'm working with a number of respected academics in the field, and currently the goal is looking at a significant data set to better identify opportunities. This research will be shared publicly. Here's the link if you're willing to share http://bit.ly/connecting-survey

B) this article in particular seems a little lacking in convincing evidence, but I think there's a good argument to be made that in the world of Psychology and social science, there's rarely one factor that can be causally identified for cultural issues. That said, there does seem to be enough evidence to support the idea that social connection, and even our self-perception about social connection, has real impact on health and societal factors. Caveat: I have not read this author's book, but the title does seem to imply he's got an outlook he may promote.

My guess is you'll get more traction if you describe some of your affiliations to establish credibility. Personally I never fill out non-random sampled online survey because the resulting studies aren't likely to be valid.

Maybe a cliche, but if you're in the pit of loneliness, perhaps a good strategy is to get a dog. You will have a friend, it allows you to practice your communication skills (good for introvert people), and it can help getting into contact with others. Downside of course is that you can't leave the house for longer periods.

Other downsides include shedding, dog poop/vomit/urine, vet bills, dog food costs, potential lawsuits from dog bites (I have experience with this one), etc.

I am an extremely lonely person, to the point where I'm suicidal, and I can't say I can pinpoint the cause, only that it's psychological(duh!). I can't equate my extreme introvertism with the rise of technology, in fact I believe that without the rise of technology I'd probably have already killed myself. This way I've managed to get a job despite my social and emotional inpetitude and felt at least a small part of belonging, that I'm at least somewhat "normal", not that it helped much. I don't think when it comes to depression and loneliness that anything has changed when it comes to people, but instead the internet has provided a place where we can write self-loathing walls of which has brought this ever-present issue to the worlds attention, which is in line with the article's message.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/97008.Love_Freedom_and_A...

Check out this book for a good angle on the difference between loneliness and aloneness.

Well, I just created a lonely people discord channel. https://discord.gg/wrkqpXA

I've heard an assertion that people on the Asperberg's-ish end of the autism spectrum are over-represented amongst software developers.

If that's true, I wonder it's a contributing factor for some software developers having trouble making friends once they're out of school, especially once they have kids.

There’s something else called HSP which gets misdiagnosed as spectrum. Your senses are particularly intense and they behave badly when overextended. The difference is that in the morning they understand what they did wrong and leads to a cycle of guilt. This turns them into introverts.

This difference also makes it hard to make friends because they expect a lot of insight conversationally and they pick up tells from other people. The joke is that they know how you feel before you do. It’s very offputting.

The condition itself referred to as Sensory Processing Sensitivity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_processing_sensitivity

> factor for some software

One in a thousand perhaps? Not really a relevant percentage for the whole discussion.

Didn't Bowling Alone tackle some of this 10 years ago?

It's going to kill me.

Anecdote of one.

Betteridge's law of headlines : "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

This is why I canceled my subscription to the NYTimes and stop following the news so much. Everything is an epidemic. Everything is going to end the world.

Are there people with problems of loneliness? Sure. Is it an epidemic? Of course not.

Just like the tide pod epidemic last month. Next come, it'll be another epidemic.

And the easiest way to spot lazy media is see if the title is a headline.

"Will your kids' candy be safe this halloween?"

"Did aliens build the pyramids?"

In my opinion, the only real epidemic in modern times is people wasting time reading useless media.

> Are there people with problems of loneliness? Sure. Is it an epidemic? Of course not.

There are increasing numbers of lonely people, and loneliness causes severe health problems, reducing quality and length of life.

All that's missing from the normal definition of epidemic is the element of contagion.

This article is actually critical of people claiming there is a "loneliness epidemic."

Betteridge's law of headlines holds again.

The media also tells people everything now. The truth is the accepted group opinion. Viral life truths. You must be in a relationship to be happy.

Also, this is conjecture, I think loneliness and despondent anxiety about not being in a relationship feel so similar, people mix them up.

Yes, it’s a vast conspiracy.

Started by that mainstream bard, Shakespeare.

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