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> What I found most off putting, was when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview, all doors for a senior level promotion were suddenly open, to incentivise me to stay. Doesn't feel great when negotiations with your employer are comparable to those had with your cable provider.

Wow, that's one hell of a way to look at things. Thanks for that perspective.

Both are businesses, and most successful businesses are sociopathic. That includes game theory both with customers and internal resources. You are a "human resource", not a friend.

This is where I think academia has got it right. When you do something, you get full credit on it -- your name on the paper, your face on the book and department website, you're the one giving the presentation, you're the one who gets the benefits if it's commercialized (after the university takes its cut). Loyalty also is valued (or a less negative word to use is being a team player), as people write recommendation letters for each other and their reputation is at stake when they do anything.

Yeah that’s a great way to phrase it.

I always got frustrated with counter-offers upon resignation, as it’s the most vivid “yeah we could definitely have paid you this because you’re worth it, but only if we know you’re really mad”

On the other hand isn't it also a face saving out allowing you stay? - I'm sure many people quit without being 100% sure :)

From the company's perspective it's always a game of getting maximum effort/value for minimum price. From the employee's perspective it's the exact opposite: maximum price for minimum effort/value. If they can dangle that carrot in front of you and get you to give 110% at your current pay scale for 1-2 more years then why the hell wouldn't they do it? And how many people grind away on that treadmill after having that conversation with their boss? For every post like this there's gotta be hundreds if not thousands of people at these big companies that put their noses back to the grindstone to keep chasing that promotion.

To be sure I'm not downplaying your commentary. It's extremely illuminative and very well written. After almost 20 years in the industry I've learned the burning truth of it all, though. Loyalty to individuals is worthwhile. Loyalty to companies is meaningless. Be earnest and caring in your interactions with individual coworkers but feel nothing as you squeeze every drop you can out of the company because that's exactly what they're trying to do to you.

"If they can dangle that carrot in front of you and get you to give 110% at your current pay scale for 1-2 more years then why the hell wouldn't they do it?"

Cause that's a shitty thing to do. And, as shown, it leads to people leaving.

doesn't matter when there is always a fresh new grad who doesn't know any better waiting to take your place

Would be nice if 22-24 yr olds weren't the majority of people building the infrastructure of the free world though =/

Yes, (most) people care that it's a shitty thing to do, but again companies like this do not. Their goal is to grind as much productivity out of you for as cheap as possible. It sounds fatalistic but it's just how it is. Romanticizing things just leads to heartbreak.

EDIT: Note I said "companies like this". There are clearly companies that are run at the top by compassionate, non-shitty people and those values filter down through the org. However, as companies get larger and especially once they are beholden to investors and ESPECIALLY when they are beholden to public investors that seems to die a gradual death.

I can see that now and completely agree, but back then - much like the author of the original post, I was eating up the whole idea of being more than just an employee, of all of us being in it for a larger goal.

In fact, it took me another couple of years, and witnessing that the grass is no greener in the startup world, to finally come to this conclusion.

Even though I have come to terms with this, I have not really been able to completely adapt yet. Which is why, again much like the author, I have currently landed on working for myself. I do miss working on more ambitious projects with bigger teams, that a job like that enables, but for now, I have no interest in playing the game to achieve my career goals.

>What I found most off putting, was when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview, all doors for a senior level promotion were suddenly open, to incentivise me to stay.

Did you meet anyone who had taken that option? I thought it was commonly viewed a bad idea to take a counter offer, since most companies will lay you off or never promote you again due to perceived disloyalty?

I know of someone (not in the same company) who was offered a one time large cash bonus to stay for at least 12 more months. He took the offer. Unfortunately I don't know where that has lead to in his relationship with the employer.

I too would be interested in knowing if that has actually worked out for anyone long term.

It worked out for me long-term. It really depends on a lot of factors. In my case:

* I didn't actively seek out employment elsewhere. A place I'd interviewed at and turned down in the past contacted me again after they'd finished a large fundraising round. They had a new office, and I was curious just to see how they'd progressed. The whole thing happened fast and they ended up offering me a 50% raise.

* I preferred my current workplace in basically every way except for money.

* I had a great relationship with my boss, who also held a lot of power in the company.

* I wasn't really "just another" developer at the company but was doing some pretty important work.

They matched the offer (exceeded it, really), I took the counteroffer and stayed, and two years later I've been promoted two levels and given multiple further raises and bonuses.

Well that's the difference then, you were headhunted and they wanted you to stay. That isn't perceived disloyalty, it is the exact opposite: you wanted to stay there but be compensated the same way.

Sometimes they can be caught off-guard with your unhappiness. Usually, you're not announcing that you're interviewing at other places for the same reasons. It's all in the game, I guess.

The simplest way at this point would be just to apply to other company at the senior position and then re-apply back.

Well, the goal of a promotion is to both enable the employee to get more responsibilities and the company to get more out of the employee.

If you're already putting in as much as the senior folk without being one the company has no upside in offering a promotion with the exception of employee retention/reducing employee turnover, so it is fitting that they'd offer it when you are about to leave.

Wow, this just brought me back to a "career ladder" conversation I had once upon a time, where my manager said that they promote people to positions when they're already operating at that level. Sounded good at the time, I never realized the implications until now.

Isn't that kind of what the Peter principle says?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

"when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview"

This is a huge issue... You should have more actively met with them.

I've been in corporations where this is not always possible. (Mostly, politically speaking, though IIRC at one job my grandboss was not located in my building/city.)

Everywhere I have worked, if I had gone to my manager's manager without his explicit instruction to do so, would have led to my manager spending 100% of his time trying to get me fired because I would not be a wild card in terms of messaging to his boss.

Undoubtedly there are places where this is not the case, but in any workplace where politics have taken over skipping the hiearchy leads to nothing but political warfare

Sounds like your bosses have been a little micromanagey. Talking to more senior managers have been great ways for me to gain valuable perspectives on their goals and ask questions about how to achieve them. They should also be interested in a more unfiltered view from talking to the rank and file.

I agree, it's been politicking on my managers part