Hacker News Reader

Comment by bdcravens | Hacker News Reader

> the West Coast ethos more idealized a kind of Woz/Jobs style college dropout lifestyle

I think this is romanticized. Many startups require college degrees, and the crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background. Hell, Woz probably wouldn't have passed one of those interviews (and Jobs wasn't really a developer though he had some early technical roles)

View on HN

>crazy algorithm interviews really aren't passable without a strong CS background.

Algorithms is one class.

Where did you go where it's only one class? My university (quarter system) required 4 minimum.

I was speaking somewhat in general, with "algorithm" being {crazy_computer_science_problem} (when you're interviewing for a React or Rails gig no less)

Maybe basics. To go deeper it could be many more classes, 4-5 easily. It just depends how deep and wide you want to go. You can't do more then basic overview of couple of standard algorithms in one class tbh.

Which universities have multiple semesters of algorithms as standard undergrad curriculum?

That was besides my point (there probably are universities like that). What I was trying to point out was that a class of algorithms might not be enough to prepare you for some hardcore algorithmic interviews out there that go into lot of detail you probably didn't learn in that one class or throw some more advanced variations or algorithms at you.

Some of the interviews out there will expect you to have much more knowledge than what was taught in that one class in the uni. And sometimes companies with these interviewing processes really don't even do anything else than CRUD apps which is hilarious given their interviewing routines.

I agree - the algorithms whiteboard interview is a distinct skill for which a CS degree is neither necessary nor sufficient.

University of Virginia had 2 semesters of theory as a standard + a practical optional, which was usually something that made heavy usage of math or logic anyways.

I think Emory has the same.

I don't think this is that strange, is it? Which university do you know that doesn't mandate this for Computer Science?

Several semesters of theory is completely normal, but is not the same thing as 4-5 classes on algorithms. I had Discrete Math, Algorithms, and Formal Languages, all purely proof-based. Still, those were 3 courses out of 18 in my major. HN's perception that CS programs are mostly or entirely algorithms classes is baffling to me.

Only one quarter of algorithms was required at Stanford. However, I did end up taking a class on computational mol bio algorithms and I believe there were at least 3 other electives that focused on specific classes of algorithms in discrete domains.

Rochester Institute of Technology CS curriculum breaks up theory courses into 2:

Intro to CS Theory Intro to Algorithms

Both combined I'd say are a good base for technical interviews, but not sufficient.

Most job posts are careful to list CS degree "or equivalent experience".

That's boilerplate for positions that can't legally require a degree. They'll still ask and filter on CS questions.

Yes, and when you answer them correctly you get the offer. It's only getting easier for autodidacts in this industry, with OCW, Stanford Online, Udacity, etc. The degree itself is a pretty terrible filter unless it comes from one of a very select few schools.

If you're not admitted to one of the best schools you're arguably better off going it alone these days.

>If you're not admitted to one of the best schools you're arguably better off going it alone these days.

Just a note to people making this decision now. I did pretty well without a degree, but my dad and my stepdad both worked in this industry.

This is true of most of the people I know who work in the field without a degree. If you don't already have good industry contacts? breaking in without a degree can be difficult.

On the other hand, there's no harm in trying to get a job, and if you can't, calling it a gap year and heading to college... I'm just sayin' - especially if you don't have family contacts to smooth the way, I wouldn't poo-poo the idea of college. I personally want to go to college now (for other reasons) and I'm kind of pissed at younger me for not taking high school seriously, meaning I've got to spend two years in a community college first, if I want to get into an exclusive school.

Mind you, if you've spent much time developing software to have the experience they seek, you soon start to learn those CS concepts naturally anyway. Really, all they are filtering against is people who are bad at interviewing and maybe they'll catch the odd person who does not even know how to turn a computer on but wanted to see if they could get the job anyway.

> That's boilerplate for positions that can't legally require a degree. They'll still ask and filter on CS questions.

I don't have a degree, I haven't had a job that didn't either straight require a college degree or require a college degree "or equivalent experience" - I've been mostly employed for 20 years now; I'm sure there were a lot of places where my resume went in the bin because there was no 'education' section, but there are plenty of places where it did not.

Sure, sure, they ask CS questions, but... I can handle most of the CS questions even though I have approximately an 8th grade math education, according to khan academy (I recently took the GRE; 95th percentile verbal, 45th percentile quantitative, so I guess that's '8th grade for people who are good at math') - I'm not saying I'm good at the CS stuff, but I can code up a reasonable linked list, and can code up a bubble sort and a quicksort and tell you when to use which.

Point being, you can learn the CS stuff without college without too much sweat. CS, as tested in interviews, is way easier, say, than a community college calculus class.

Have you ever been paid to write a linked list or bubble sort?

Linked list, yes. It is hard to write anything in c without doing a linked list. You aren't a real Unix sysadmin if you don't have at least really basic c skills.

Bubble sort, no. The libraries are enough better than I am to put up with the libraries, and in my space, if it matters, you use a database anyhow.

So to circle back to my point, writing C has a specific need for linked list questions, but many, many more interviews raise the topic than just those for C writers.

Sure, it's a ritual that doesn't directly relate to the work required, like all interviews. Evaluating someone before you hire them is hard - Being interviewed and getting hired, in my experience, is way easier than interviewing, and making a good decision.

I'm just saying that learning the algorithms question for a interview isn't exactly electrical engineering, if you know what I mean. Programming algorithms is way easier, as far as I can tell, than the rest of engineering in that it's largely just a step-by-step process; there's some logic involved, but these are all things that can be done by a person who hasn't passed an undergrad algebra course or equivalent test.

Every time I go to an interview? When I'm done, I write down all the questions I got wrong. I mean, not the exact questions, but the concepts that are asked about. For a certain place and time? often the questions are super similar even when you are interviewing at different companies. More than once, I fail one interview and the same question gets asked on the very next interview. Well, I looked it up, and I got the job.

Point being? every time an interviewer asks you about something you don't know, you spend time researching it. You figure out what is the right answer (test on your next interview) and then you add that answer to your spaced repetition setup.

Yes, there are some positions that really do require a degree (either for the work, or for the "culture fit" or prejudice or whatever) But asking algorithms questions at the interview definitely is not the same thing as requiring a degree.

Really, you can think of this as the sort of social ritual I imagine is required of people working outside of tech. memorize bubble sort? or how to match the right kind of uncomfortable shoes with the right sort of impractical pants? I've made my choice. ''

Reply on news.ycombinator.com