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Harley will probably fail with an EV. If Honda bring out an electric version of the Vision or the PCX, they'll sell boatloads of them.

Electric scooters are near-ubiquitous in South-East Asia, particularly China. 30-50 miles of range is plenty for a little urban runabout. You don't need a lot of power to replace a 50cc or 125cc engine, so the battery is small enough to carry up to your apartment and it can charge reasonably quickly from a normal 13A outlet. Electric scooters are often replacing absolutely filthy two-stroke scooters, so they have a disproportionately positive impact on local air quality.

Electric scooters have the potential to be the new Honda Cub - simple, economical transport for the masses.

I'm hoping they, or someone succeeds, and I think the market will develop.

In addition to carbon emissions reduction, the most immediate benefit is a godly reduction in noise pollution. In SF we have these bastards who love nothing more than to rev up their engines and make noise, on residential streets, at night. I so loathe that aspect of bikers.

Sure you hate it but the riders/consumers love it and that's another reason that electric bikes will fail.

From what I understand those loud motorcycles have illegally modified exhaust systems.

I would love it if police would pull people over for their loud motorcycles, check that the system hadn't been tampered with, and if not seize them and revoke the rider's motorcycle license... probably not going to happen though.

I wish the supes would push some quality of life ordinances, kind of like the ones Mirakami passed for the panhandle to deal with the druggies on Haight, but most supes don't seem to care.

Harley owners groups even distribute guides as to which areas are 'unfriendly' towards them (eg, actually care about excessive noise).

As a rider, I can't want until Harley crashes and burns. Ungodly loud and ungodly TERRIBLE sounding machines. I only wish I could afford a Ducati but at least a Duc with Termis sounds GOOD in addition to pissing everyone off. I don't know why anybody would want to ride what sounds like a flatulent cow.

And their riders' need to go wide open throttle at low revs any time they see someone within earshot they think they might be able to 'impress' just murders any desire I have to ever ride one.

I can't say for sure I won't find myself being drawn to a 'cruiser' style motorcycle at some point in life. But I can say for sure that I will never, ever want to associate myself with that particular brand.

From a non-rider's perspective, the difference between a loud Harley and a loud Ducati is the same- both obnoxious. Only riders would be able to tell the difference.

Harley has made racebikes in the past, both flat track as well as track bikes. Although yes, they are known for their cruisers.

One sounds like a fart.

Agreed, though, of course many people find any loud vehicle annoying. I've seen the occasional ricer banging their R6 off the rev limiter at the gas station. The difference is, the loud sportbike is gone in the blink of an eye. The loud Harley rider feels the need to 'show off' in every 30mph pedestrian zone they can find.

Harley motors are designed to be loud. They are called "thumpers" because both pistons are at top dead center at the same time, therefore they both fire at the same time. This also causes massive vibration. Very inefficient and lame IMO.

They don't. It's a 45 degree vee with a common crank pin. The front cylinder fires, the crank rotates 315 degrees before the rear cylinder fires, then the crank rotates 405 degrees before the first cylinder fires again.

The 90 degree difference between firing pulses is what makes the engine shake and sound the way it does.

"In SF we have these bastards who love nothing more than to rev up their engines and make noise, on residential streets, at night."

This is pretty much everywhere in the US. Aside from local ordinances, there is nothing you can do about. To call people bastards for a loud bike is one thing, but have you ever heard 'loud pipes save lives'?

On the highway, that's fine, on busy streets, that's fine. I get it. On quiet residential streets, at night, it's being a selfish prick. Normal bikers accelerate and are heard but aren't overly noisy. These other people on the other hand intentionally want to be annoyingly overly loud.

The sequence is, slow for a stop sign or intersection, full throttle, then heavy breaking for the next block, full throttle, mind you, modified, again. It's infuriatingly annoying.

Agreed. The problem I see with similar comments here about noise and the character of these (fair to say overly obnoxious) riders, and how it affects your life, is that the same can be said of All of other loud vehicles. It's like complaining about the character of people with too loud of music blaring. They like it loud. They're different than you. This is America, where it's loud, and youre free to be loud too. This coming from someone who is especially sensitive and irritated by noises Im not making myself.

All loud vehicles piss me off, and so do people who play music too loud. Your right to be loud stops at my ears.

“Loud pipes save lives” is ridiculous. If you need to be irritatingly loud to be safe then your hobby is too dangerous.

Your right to be loud stops at my ears.

I wish soundproofing standards for buildings were much higher.

Apartment listings only ever focus on just one of the major senses, vision. They make sure the photos look good with prop furniture and just the right lighting. But the experience of actually living in a place involves all of the senses.

I would love to see an apartment listing saying "60dBA soundproofing", "99.9% odor isolation", etc. All of the senses matter.

That would still mean you can't enjoy balconies.

I used to want a balcony until I lived across from a building with balconies. Especially during summer, there's always someone having a loud party until late at night, and it's a different unit every time so harder to enforce noise limits and clean air smoking bans. So the downside of balconies is you have to share noise/airspace with everyone else with a balcony.

That's not how it works, unfortunately. In a society, you have the right to be loud. You don't have the right to infringe on someone else's right of quiet enjoyment. It’s also common courtesy. Noise pollution is a real problem and it is pollution

> This is America, where it's loud, and youre free to be loud too.

I'm in Japan and have the same problem with kids with modified exhausts being loud in quiet neighborhoods. This is Japan, where people are NOT loud, and it's even forbidden to talk on the phone on a train or bus.

Assholes are assholes around the world.

> have you ever heard 'loud pipes save lives'?

Yes I have, and it's complete and total nonsense.

Here are a few good articles on the subject: https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/stop-saying-loud-pipes... https://canadamotoguide.com/2016/07/29/the-truth-about-loud-...

tl;dr version is that basic physics says most of that noise goes backwards, so while a driver may be more likely to notice a louder bike the majority of the increased noise is going in exactly the wrong direction to be useful.

It's a bogus claim made by people trying to justify their annoying exhaust choices.

You'll note that the people who tend to be most vocal about "loud pipes save lives" also tend to be the ones wearing little to no gear and/or riding like jerks. We're not talking about the most safety conscious people out there.

As someone who drives an ATV on gravel backroads, with drunk assholes in automobiles, I completely disagree. After a few obviously intoxicated (on alcohol, and/or pills, and/or unknown, because they told me...) people commenting that they heard me coming around a blind curve because I would floor it for a split second to announce myself, I will contine to appropriately be loud. This not only applies to backroads but especially 1-track offroad trails where people on horses will hear me and be able to prepare ~45 seconds before I arrive at my slow, but dangerously deaf, speed (because of my helmet).

Though, I am a very considerate and conservative rider, whose default is to putter along and disturb as little as possible, especially around humans but I try to respect nature as well. Harleys... yeah, I mostly agree with you.

> but have you ever heard 'loud pipes save lives'?

Then by doing it to show off at red lights etc. they are taking lives by putting loud pipes in constant legal jeopardy.

It’s odd. In the U.K., hearing loud motorbikes is pretty rare, apart from the occassional 16 year old. Different cultural traditions, I guess.

”but have you ever heard 'loud pipes save lives'?”

When the riders who use that phrase don’t wear helmets (and they usually don’t), it seems more than a little insincere.

To further point 1, Harley made the V-Rod in 2001.[1]

Departure from their typically... lacking bikes(liquid cooling, engine designed in joint with Porsche). With drastically different styling. They had a niche but never really caught on.

Harley also briefly had a Performance Bike company, Buell that they shuttered.[2]

I'll disagree with your point 4. Even though they're still behind, modern Harleys aren't the stereotypical leaking/broken down rattling apart of the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Company

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC

You are correct with reguards to #4, the evo engines and later were all decent I hear. My point partly stands as nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited.

American sportbikes have always had problems, even without harleys heavy hand. The Buell story really is a sad and facinating one for anyone interested in business.

It's hard to remove the muffler on an electric motor.

Use it against them! Market the bike as "the Harley that comes stock without a muffler".

nobody seems to leave their bike stock, and mods will be limited.

Look at the electric bicycle crowd. Mods, mods, mods. Yes, you can get an electric bicycle to go above 50MPH, but you don't have the tires and brakes to stop the thing.

I'm a Buell fan and owned two Buells. Erik Buell really had to fight tooth and nail to do anything with Harley, and was saddled with using Sportster engines which are quite archaic. This led to bikes with a lot of character but no mass market appeal.

Buell did release the 1125r near the end, which was finally a bike that could truly compete with other sport bikes, and used an engine made by Rotax. Sadly it was too little, too late, and the 1125r had reliability problems to boot.

In short, Buell never stood a chance of being anything beyond a very small, niche brand.

> Harley demographic is entrenched

They're not targeting existing customers, this is a growth story about attracting new, younger, urban/suburban customers.

The “shut up and take my money” Ducati-riding demographic, to be specific.

To sort of piggy back off of your point, I think Harley is headed for the rocks and it all comes down to number 1. Harley has such a concrete demographic and it's been exhausted. The problem is, by catering so hard to that demographic they are not able to get new riders.

To make matters worse, things like electric motorcycles, discontinuing the Dyna / FXR line, and changing from an air cooled engine to a liquid cooled engine is also annoying their diehard demographic.

The only demographic which seems to be growing (though, I'm extremely biased on this) is younger kids who are getting into customizing motorcycles. Not "Orange County Chopper" bikes, but buying old Harleys (or Triumphs or BSAs or Hondas for that matter) and making them into cool choppers or cafe racers or whatever. The problem is, this demographic doesn't give Harley any money. They don't want the Harley branded everything. They want old bikes that they can get cheap aftermarket or NOS parts for and they want to ride those.

This is the reality for a lot of companies, they have built themselves around the baby boomers who are getting to old and dying off. They've all but ignored the younger generations and now must face the reality that soon no one will care about their brand and they'll wither and die just like their core demographic.

Even if millennials suddenly thought Harley was cool, they wouldn't have the money to afford one.

If price gets to a point that it is at parity with the typical bike, I'd probably jump. I don't own one and the only thing that really draws is less fuel consumption. Something that I just charge for trips to and from work? That'd be icing.

Though for the points you listed and others, I expect the run of the mill that they're none for to continue for a while as well. But they have the possibility of owning two markets, so why not?

But I don't think it's the existing demographic they are trying to sell this bike to. The whole point is that market is shrinking. Rather, they want to have something available to sell to the "next generation" of riders. For example, people who want an electric bike made by an American manufacturer.

I've never really been attracted to motorcycles, and while I've seen Harleys and thought "that looks good", it's never made me want one. This one interests me.

Unfortunately as I'd need a car anyway, I'm guessing this is going to be well outside my price range. Is there any info on pricing yet? I couldn't see it in TFA.

Times will change. Riding a motorbike with a petrol engine will become like riding a horse.

people still enjoy riding horses, not for daily transport but for recreational journeys.

I believe that's the point.

There's a bit of irony in your statement because people are attracted to motorcycles in some ways _because_ they're kinda like riding a horse.

> This will fail.

Longtime Harley rider here, what I love on my Harley, the vibration, the sound, the smell, this Harley as nothing of it, I would never buy it and probably the average Harley rider shares my opinion.

My dad owned a Harley so I totally get the appeal, especially the sound. But it's also the sound that annoys the crap out of the rest of us. Then again, I suppose annoying the crap out of the rest of us with the sound may be part of the appeal of it to certain Harley owners. (Entire comment tongue in cheek... mostly.) :-)

> And I will casually remind readers of Southparks opinion.

Which is? I'm out of the loop.