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Comment by aphextron | Hacker News Reader

>In the Bitcoin community is that vision basically dead? As here, all of the action seems to be through financial institutions.

It's never been about the "vision" for anyone but Satoshi. It's just money. That's why this whole thing is just incredibly uninteresting IMO.

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That was some humorous unintentional irony, considering that the vision was for Bitcoin to be just money.

Yeah.

I was originally pretty open-minded; blockchains are a cool technology, and I like to see people try out-there experiments. But for me this stuff increasingly falls into the same bucket as 3D movies/TV: lots of excitement, cool tech, and a plausible story as to why it could amazing valuable. But in practice, I've seen little value actually demonstrated, so my eyes generally glaze over at this point.

That's part of why I'm curious to hear from people who were excited about the initial vision. Maybe there's a pony in there somewhere?

You probably aren't the intended audience. Ask someone in Zimbabwe or Venezuela how they feel about crypto. Ask a woman in Afghanistan where all her money is considered property of men. Ask a millennial that has no other way out of the class system they were born into. Ask someone tired of governments printing money to finance wars. You'll get more positive answers.

I don’t understand how it’s useful to poor farmer in Zimbabwe when crypto transaction takes hour and cost is equivalent to $20 which is their monthly income.

That's basically just bitcoin at this point. Lots of alternatives.

> Ask a woman in Afghanistan where all her money is considered property of men.

Yes, clearly the solution to this problem is BTC, NOT some kind of other reform or liberalization. </s>

I'm not usually one to defend the parent in this kind of argument, but I think there's room for both. Social reform can take years or even decades. If Bitcoin acts as a band-aid while those reforms take their time to progress, it could be a net positive there. But I do remain skeptical that it's actually making much of a difference.

I agree in principle, it's just that I'm pretty sure BTC is pretty useless for the things someone needs to buy on a day to day basis in Afghanistan.

The financialization of commodities is exactly why everyone you listed is in the situation they are in.

How does Bitcoin's financialization actually help anyone you listed?

Give me a break. Those are political and socioeconomic problems. None of them are solved by tech. You can't sprinkle Satoshi's fairy dust on Afghanistan women and expect them to have equal footing with their male counterparts. You can't just inject Satoshi's Revolutionary Blockchain into zimbabwe or venezuela and solve their political problems. Life just doesn't work that way.

> Ask a millennial that has no other way out of the class system they were born into.

I don't know that betting on cryptocurrencies is a desirable & admirable method to increase social mobility. Bitcoin lost > 60% of its value from mid-December to mid-February.

Sorry this line doesn't work for me. Previously I worked on Mifos, an open-source microfinance accounting system, and worked for Kiva.org, a microfinance broker. I have at least a passing familiarity with the financial needs in the third world.

I don't see Bitcoin as doing much there. The peer-to-peer aspect requires computing and connectivity requirements most people don't have. What has had mild uptake is new online financial institutions that use Bitcoin. But I don't see any real advantage there. Compare instead with M-Pesa, which has over approximately the same period gained millions and millions of users.

I own a small business in Venezuela. Nothing tech related, but in the food industry.

Bitcoin has been a godsend. We are able to save money again having it as hard currency. I do exchange some of my btc for dollars, using btc to help to make the transaction (Why change it? Because I respect that you shouldn't have on crypto more than you can't afford to lose).

I'm buying small amounts every day (As our currency depreciate every day as well), but it give us the chance to save and is easier and safer than buying usd in cash.

I do understand the benefits have yet to "trickle down" to the regular people (I'm after all, a business owner), but it will trickle down. Our business is safer, I can afford to raise wages and able to plan ahead (As much as you can plan ahead in a country like Venezuela).

How do you do transactions in bitcoin though? Don't you have to convert it back to local currency at some point?

Using localbitcoin to buy them. I either send them to a wallet for long term storage or use uphold to change to usd.

I'm only buying in btc "saving money". Local currency (which my business generates) is spent either in supplies, wages, or just living here. I have yet to change some btc back to local currency (Which I might do to make a large purcharse or some emergency), but will probably just change USD cash (it will be easier).

BTC is not being used for small purchases (So no bitcoin to pay for coffee). Is really just used as "store of wealth". Most business could take USD if you want to use it for payment and some even demand USD (car repairs, construction work, that kind of stuff). Most people DO know about bitcoin, but I wouldn't say is mainstream to own it. There's still fear about volatility.

Did you purchase any Venezuelan petro[1]?

[1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/02/venezuela-says-i...

No, I did not. Nobody I know did.

I agree it's a farce. Save from speculators, nobody is going to buy Petro as nobody trust the Venezuelan goverment. It's probably a money laundering scheme.

Maybe the government will try to force it on the population (By making certain things only payable in Petro), but nobody has any reason to invest in Petro as it is now. The next goverment will surely not recognize it and it's value will drop to zero (Maybe even before a new government steps in)

This makes sense, but isn't there going to be upheaval shortly because the government of Venezuela can't print Bitcoin?

On the one hand, I don't see how creating the Petro helps the government any more than printing bolivars, and on the other hand, the fact that they are trying it indicates they are kind of responding in a cargo cult way to Bitcoin, which is a threat because it can't be printed by them.

Assuming ordinary people use Bitcoin that solves their problems in the short run, but what happens politically next? If it is seriously expected that the Petro will capture the cryptocurrency "magic", and that fails, it seems like a crackdown on Bitcoin might happen next.

They might try to crack it down. It will probably go the same way as the crack down of the dollar. Won't work. And is even easier to hide bitcoin that to hide USD cash.

The downside of dealing with local currency is too great, so people are willing to risk being caught dealing with USD or BTC.

Thanks for replying. In my long-ago time living in South America, it was pretty common for people to save money as hard currency. But they'd just do a single exchange, local currency for USD. Could you say more about what makes the two-step through Bitcoin easier and safer than going direct? And have you estimated the extra cost for the extra leg?

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