IOTA: The Brave Little Toaster That Couldn’t
casey.github.io
casey.github.io
How can one rationalize starting a super ambitious cryptocurrency project and on top of that decide to reimplement their own crypto using ternary logic for some vague theoretical benefits that would only pay out if IOTA ever becomes mainstream enough (and the benefits large enough) for people to create not only dedicated chips for it but entire industrial processes to make ternary logic silicon.
It's also completely misunderstanding the current state of IoT, chips capable of doing high grade (binary) cryptography in a reasonable amount of time nowadays are worth next to nothing and their consumption is almost negligible. It's not premature optimization, it's too-little-too-late optimization.
Doing that as a fun week end project to learn about ternary? Sure. As the foundation of your multi billion dollar cryptocurrency set to revolutionize IoT? Come on.
The two most voted comments are as follows:
>It's a little overwhelming seeing IOTA do all of these things so far beyond other crypto projects. Blockchain tech is already bleeding edge but then add in ternary, quantum resistance, DAG, infinite scaling, free transactions, and AI resistance... It can be a lot to soak in for the average blockchain investor. But that just means time is even more on IOTA's side as it slowly proves itself :). This coin is going to turn the crypto space upside down.
>IOTA is thinking ahead into the future but people seem to think their decision to go Ternary is "stupid" not realizing they are just that far ahead in their vision.
"Cryptocurrencies are nothing except the marketing power of inventors, financiers and others who love the idea of buying a black box (which is obviously empty) for the price of a Kia and dreaming that it will turn into a Mercedes. There have been times recently when this dream has materialized within hours. This is not just a bubble. It is not just a fraud. It is perhaps the outer limit, the ultimate expression, of the ability of humans to seize upon ether and hope to ride it to the stars." - Paul Singer, Elliott Management
IOTA's tech is shitty but they've convinced enough people that it's worth something that it's now worth something. Maybe that's all a crypto needs? I was honestly expecting all of this to crash and burn back in December- but it hasn't yet. Maybe these cryptocoins really are the future.
It's bait for people to jump in a pool with sharks. People like Singer and Buffett are driving by in a boat and looking in with binoculars. Hopefully enough people do not jump in that there ends up being a tidal wave.
>While the system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model. Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes. The cost of mediation increases transaction costs...
And then it argues trustless electronic money could reduce transaction costs. I think it was never intended to be a huge casino.
The large majority is in it for the trading. Unless there are huge issues such as the network crashing, they don't care. It's just a line chart on an exchange to them. That's also why there are no repercussions for people never delivering on ICO promises.
It kinda scares me.
Whether or not IOTA’s ledger is “tamper-proof,” the entire
IOTA network went down in November, and was completely
inoperable for about three days. That this has never
happened in Bitcoin or Ethereum suggests the extent to
which the IOTA network relies on the “coordinator”—a
single point of failure—and is not truly decentralized.
The network did crash when IOTA pulled its centeral authoritative 'coordinator' server offline causing all other nodes and clients to go offline.This was during a patch from an exploit discovered by MIT researchers. IOTA later denied the flaw existed, even though they took the network offline to patch it.
When the network literally didn't work, the price went up.
(Because the "price" is a thing that happens inside individual exchanges, not on the public blockchain/tangle/whatever.)
The domain registration seems recent: 2017-09-26 [3]. Registrant data is obscured by Domains By Proxy.
I can't find any indication that the site is owned by Ivancheglo. A Reddit thread[4] suggests that it is a troll website.
[1] http://www.tangleblog.com/what-is-iota-what-is-the-tangle/ [2] http://archive.is/GebOA [3] https://who.is/whois/come-from-beyond.com [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/7p1x1k/founding_partn...
Shame, I'm going to see if it's available anywhere as it was a riot. Technology NASA is making him keep secret until this countdown he had going.
Are you honestly going to try and tell me that this guy is not full of shit?
Given that there are centralized cryptocurrencies in circulation, it makes more sense to compare IOTA to something like Ripple or Stellar than to compare it to Bitcoin. In that light, most of the other objections go away -- censorship resistance is not an advertised feature; double-spends are only detectable when the coordinator milestone; fungibility is only effective after a milestone, etc.
The "post-quantum" cryptography is interesting to me personally not because of the quantum aspect, but because the tractability of discrete-log based cryptography is up in the air, and a vulnerability found in a year, or ten years, could have profound impact reaching back into the past. Hash-based one-time signature schemes seem to be a much more robust approach that will not fall to the discovery of better algorithms (even non-quantum) for approaching the discrete log problem.
The notion of using a DAG is also very interesting, and one of the nice things about IOTA is that it does not try to be anything other than a currency. Alternatives such as Byteball are, in my opinion, overreaching by attempting to be some sort of global computer that has the net effect of making clients much more complex and thus vulnerable to strange forking effects if client implementations diverge too much.
> Scalable, Decentralized, Modular, No Fees
I'm not trying to rewrite history and say that "IOTA was never intended to be decentralized". I'm saying, as the article points out, that IOTA is effectively centralized, and the plan for moving to being decentralized is fatally and irretrievably flawed.
I also think the rhetoric about being a currency for the "Internet of Things" is a nonsensical claim at best. The fact that the coins does not deliver on anything it promises does not mean that it is worthless, because it still delivers on other things that people find useful.
I'm not sold on IOTA (I have no holdings myself) just as I am not sold on the other big centralized competitors (Ripple or Stellar), but I don't think it's significantly worse than either of those in terms of what it delivers.
IOTA is more decentralized than any blockchain crypto that relies on 5 pools of miners, all largely based overseas. Furthermore, coordinator isn’t a central server all transactions pass through, contrary to popular misconception. It is just normal actor who adds transactions to the tangle, which other nodes can use as milestones, if they wish. It’s a shepherd, you could say, which the herd can follow so they don’t go astray (following some malicious nodes or whatnot). The Monte Carlo Random Walk algorithm is what will create consensus in the herd when there is no shepherd any more. It will be comparable to every sheep calling out while also following the sound of the call of the rest of the herd. That way they can all tangle up together.
Referencing the coordinator is also optional.
Also, if you research and understand how IOTA intends to work without the coordinator, it’s easier to accept it for now as training wheels. I suggest reading pg 15 and on of the white paper analyzing in great depth how the network will defend different attack scenarios without a coordinator. For the past several months, IOTA foundation has been using St Petersburg college’s super computer to stress test IOTA and learn when they can turn the coordinator off. There will likely be a blog about the results soon.
This is another great read covering double spends on IOTA without a coordinator: www.tangleblog.com/2017/07/10/is-double-spending-possible-with-iota/
This too: http://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/7eix4a/any_iota_guru_t...
Also this correspondence with Vitalik and Come_from_Beyond https://twitter.com/DavidSonstebo/status/932510087301779456
At the end of the day, outstanding claims require outstanding evidence and folks approaching IOTA with a “I’ll believe it when I see it” attitude is completely understandable. It’s all about your risk tolerance.
You cannot have a trustless consensus without a mining incentive:
Quoted from my post linked below:
o) Network hashrate is the overall power of the network - in bitcoin, this is the computing power needed to generate a block.
o) Bitcoin employs a mining reward which creates a competition between miners to produce a block and claim their reward for doing so. Slower miners lose out to faster miners, but they still participate in the competition to produce a block because they stand a chance of winning occasionally.
o) This mining subsidy provides a positive incentive to miners to play by the rules, and encourages them not try to double spending, because they might as well claim the mining reward instead of trying to double spend which is often much more difficult than producing a single block.
o) The mining subsidy also encourages all miners to participate in the mining process, which gives an overall metric for total network hashing power, which you can then use to give an estimate of when it is safe to accept a transaction of a given size, as confirmed, because (on average), the block reward is equal to the electricity cost of mining that block. That means that when your transaction has been buried under enough blocks that the mining subsidy equals the transactions size, it is more or less safe to accept that transaction as confirmed.
Now, imagine the situation with no mining reward.
o) Instead of participating in a competition to win the block reward, miners have no positive incentive to participate anymore. They now are left with the negative incentive to try and double spend.
o) Since these miners are not contributing their hashing power to the network anymore, the overall hashrate of the network in unmeasurable, since these miners are quite likely to leave their ASICs in sleep mode until they want to double spend
o) With the network hash rate unmeasurable, there is no way to put an estimate on when it is safe to accept a transaction as confirmed.
When there is no way to estimate when it is safe to accept a transaction as confirmed, that currency is now useless because any transaction can potentially be reversed.
This is why both byteball and iota use trusted third parties to secure the network, but at that point, you might as well be using VISA.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1799665.msg20108439#...
and Byteball looks more secure than IOTA you can have several witnesses that can bee different entities and you have to conclude more than half to change consensus state.
This is not true, Proof-of-stake creates a suitable incentive to verify transactions and maintain the network. It's a legitimate alternative to proof-of-work.
I think it's a good article but "equitable distribution" is a big function of PoW that I thought was a critical ingredient but now I'm not so sure.
I submitted in the wrong thread
While it may be possible to make that checkpointing distributed, the only way that I'm aware of is to use proof of work. The easier path is to just checkpoint in the client, so that the trust comes from the github repository that pushes the client, or gets trusted updates from some trusted authority.
That's not to say that trustless consensus is necessary for a currency. I used to be a very strong believer that that was a necessary component, but I've begun to question that belief. The notion of censorship-resistance is an important part of why I liked Bitcoin in the first place, but may turn out not to be sufficiently valuable to people to impact coins that don't have that property.
It turns out that "trustless" is more subtle and not quite as discrete as we might've thought. While PoW coins like Bitcoin are probably ranked higher on this scale than others, it might not matter.
> That's not to say that trustless consensus is necessary for a currency.
Agreed. IMO these newer coins that are lower on the trustless scale would not have been possible without the high bar that Bitcoin set. But now, they are.
That's exactly it -- even in the centralized variants, the "trusted" authority doesn't have a lot of power. The main power they have is censoring transactions, both in the present (not accepting a new transaction) and in the past (rewriting the chain to omit a transaction and all of its dependents).
The ability to rewrite history is a dangerous one, but is mitigated by the fact that they can't do so undetected by the network. This is a social/economic effect rather than a cryptographic one, which has its own dangers, but means that the trusted authority risks losing (or forking) its status to a competing trusted authority for the same coin if the consensus of the network is that they cannot be trusted.
The forward security guarantees are just that the transactions are signed, and those signatures cannot be forged, even by the trusted authority, so there is no way for another actor (including the trusted authority) without access to your private keys to spend your coins.
(https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/889.pdf
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13134363
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/52qfwl/provably_s...)
It would take the endorsement of someone that I consider extremely trustworthy to even go to the trouble of trying to deconstruct whether this approach is valid.
It stands, I think, in stark contrast to the simplicity of the proof-of-work based Sybil resistance, and the "central authority will sign the block" based Sybil resistance.
That said, given this discussion about the nature of trust, this scheme may work in effect, even if in the end it devolves into a centralized or social proof to find the correct chain. I'm not sure it adds a lot on top of that except instilling some potentially false sense of security in naively written nodes.
Are you not trusting the client you're running anyway? It seems like this is not a very big increase in trust.
There is such a mining incentive in proof-of-stake, block signers get rewarded.
> There is such a mining incentive in proof-of-stake, block signers get rewarded.
Not in all PoS coins, actually. And arguably you don't need it. Your stake's value is contingent on fulfilling the implicit promise of the network: honest, accurate, fast transactions.
It is a scam
From the AMA Bosch did[1] it certainly seems like its more than just a blockchain PR and that they are actually putting resources towards this, but its hard to tell from the outside
[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/7sxgx0/bosch_ama_janu...
> IOTA uses cryptography that cannot be broken by quantum computers. The use of such cryptography, specifically Winternitz signatures, leaves IOTA users vulnerable to loss of funds if they ever reuse an address. This attack that has already been seen in practice, with one user reportedly losing $30,000 USD worth of IOTA.
As quantum computers large enough to threaten existing cryptosystems do not exist and may not exist for many decades, this use of post quantum cryptography comes with no tangible benefit.
“No tangible benefit” is a gross overstatement and simplification. I wholeheartedly agree that 1) novel cryptography should not be adopted before it has been well-studied, and 2) threat models for motivating novel cryptography should be rational and pass a cost-benefit analysis. However, if and when quantum computers can practically break classical cryptosystems, they will be able to do against everything cryptography is used to secure today, not just going forwards. This is a stonger argument for encryption and confidentiality, but it nevertheless also applies to signatures and authentication. As a tangential point: while they aren’t perfect (in terms of efficiency), Winternitz signatures are very well studied. Given what’s available, it’s not a bad choice.
I think a lot of IOTA’s specification is pretty suspect, especially since it does utilize novel cryptography without an apparent track record or notable expertise among its team. But I also absolutely believe new cryptocurrencies and blockchain projects should be preparing for quantum computation now, if it’s possible. More pertinently, I don’t agree with the way this point was presented, because it can be interpreted as the claim that post-quantum cryptography is a useful heuristic in determining if a project has “issues”. In reality all cryptography should be suspect, and the use of post-quantum cryptography should not be dismissed immediately as a waste. With IOTA in particular, I’m weakly on the side that they shouldn’t have bothered with Winternitz signatures. But in general, I’m happy to see any project at least giving it serious consideration.
If I get this right IOTA is trying to:
* Move away from PoW
* Have a cryptocurrency that scales well to a very high transaction frequency
* Implement quantum-resistant cryptography
* Use ternary logic to theoretically minimize power consumption
That's a lot for a single project I think.
The threat model is more nuanced than “decades away.” The attacks may be decades away, but their targets will not necessarily be. Assets and communications secured today will be fully seizable and transparent in the future, you just don’t know exactly when. In other words, old ciphertexts have to be disposed of or re-encrypted, and addresses need to upgrade to pq-secure signature schemes.
This all takes for granted the idea that quantum computers will ever feasibly break classical cryptosystems (I’m weakly pessimistic it will happen in the next 100 years). But if you do accept that premise, you either implement post-quantum cryptography now if you can afford it, or you implement it on top of legacy software in the indeterminate future. The latter option is a legitimate decision, to be clear. But I can also virtually guarantee that some cryptocurrencies will footgun themselves in the process of upgrading when they’re more established.
I agree with you that IOTA is taking on a lot, but I really don’t think Winternitz signatures are exactly the deciding factor in that, based on how packed that list is already :)
In either case, I don’t see what it gets you to use the post-quantum signatures anyway, then add the overhead of ChaCha.
"since The Coordinator is the current the arbiter of truth in the IOTA system"
"Similarly, transaction outputs that appear in a snapshot [6] are more valuable than those that have."
And a couple more like these.
Despite the negativity here I think iota will likely become production ready too, but the timeline will be longer.
It seems like a really big step backwards in big big scheme of things bitcoin. All of the above problems can be solved by increasing the block size. I'm not saying it's the definitive solution... but right now it is a better solution.
A good talk about really big blocks on bitcoin and what the ramifications are; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SJm2ep3X_M
There are services like strike that offer custodial lightning channels, and will aggregate and send onchain tx's: https://medium.com/@ACINQ/introducing-strike-a-stripe-like-a...
While the network has such low fees as today, there is no need to increase the blocksize. Increasing the blocksize (or time) effects scalability in epic ways -- ie: Ethereum requires at least 500GB SSD to run -- so the minimum cost of entry is at least $300. Meanwhile 10m/1MB blocks still runs on $20 RPis.
I am not against mods to consensus to increase the block size, but there are more critical problems like solving tx malleability and new tx format (segwit) that provide more value today.
Dont be an ignorant big blocker. Look at the smartest people in this space. The real technical folk. What are they saying?
I'm seeing them zoom in on the key technical problem: at no point has LN fixed the key technical issue, how to route.
Every transaction invalidates the routing path, because it changes the amount of liquidity available in the channels.
Rick Falkvinge nails this point. Key bit from 10:00 on, though the rest is well worth your time (and I say that as someone who hates watching videos on YouTube):
https://youtu.be/Ug8NH67_EfE?t=600
LN proponents explicitly compare it to BGP - but BGP is a completely trust-based protocol, where a lot of telecoms engineers have an agreement that they'll keep the network going no matter what, and bad actors are dealt with by hand.
Trust-based and fixing problems by hand is the diametric opposite of the cryptocurrency model.