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Comment by yup123 | Hacker News Reader

be nice if the downvote button would be removed entirely, I believe more HNers would speak their mind.

Maybe, but I don't think that would improve the quality of discussion. When I get downvoted, it's usually because I'm a) factually wrong b) didn't explain the reasoning behind a counterintuitive statement or c) disagreed with someone on an emotionally charged topic. At least in cases a) and b), downvotes help me improve my writing.

Definitely agree. I find when I'm downvoted it was due to being an impulsive post rather than a well thought out post.

With the amount you see people say 'I'll get downvoted for this but...' then go on to be the top post, I think the downvoted helps more than hurts.

There's groupthink of course, but I feel the HN community is more responsible with it, and that comes from someone who often disagrees with the majority (personally, rarely expressed).

Most of my downvotes were when I was being snarky. A few were caused by me going against some HN orthodoxy but they usually get upvoted later.

The chilling effect is a bad thing for any individual who has a point they want to make, but it also makes people less reactionary and more thoughtful which is better for the community. Overall I think downvotes are a net positive.

Isn't it only freezing those who care about their points, and/or the community?

I don't think so. Back when I was running my startup I would occasionally refrain from posting on some of the more divisive topics where my opinions aren't inline with the concensus here.

Investors, customers, and peers read HN, so maintaining a clean history can seem moderately important.

I only really see really misguided/unresearched/unhelpful comments downvoted. Rarely ever comments that are just contrarian.

I'm curious if you think there's a problem, and why. Maybe I'm just inside the bubble.

> I only really see really misguided/unresearched/unhelpful comments downvoted.

On controversial topics, I see lots of better comments downvoted for a while when they are new, but they tend to recover within a few hours.

Well, those kind of comments do get downvoted, but people on HN do also downvote comments simply because they disagree with them (often regardless of whether the comments are perfectly civil, and just express a point of view that the downvoter doesn't share). Of course, many of those downvoting these comments would be quick to label them as "misguided" or "unhelpful", at which point there is usually little reason to argue about it.

It's an imperfect system, but I'd guess it is a net positive at least most of the time. It does help to filter out when people are just being total jerks.

Or if downvoting cost the downvoter one karma point. So they'd have to make the choice between contributing a comment to contest the issue or lazily pushing the down arrow and losing karma.

I generally try to upvote only. It really annoys me to see some comment down voted to grey oblivion with no follow-up comments explaining why. Particularly when looking back at older topics; was the post wrong, or just unpopular?

I suggest an amendment to the downvote such that if your total lifetime positive (excluding downvotes) reaches say 1000 or 1500, you should also get the ability to downvote. It’s much easier to lose points than gain them on the site.

I don't think it's easier to lose points here. Gaining points is easy if your comments are constructive and actionable. Opinions and anything argumentative generally isn't very useful.

One thing you can try is looking through your comment history and see which of your comments got the most upvotes. One of my highest upvotes was in a thread about whether software engineers should waste time doing telephone customer support, and I linked to a story of when William from Microsoft took a customer support call:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15813387

Another was a comment about where I got my first customers:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14192711

Or linking to a strategy for finding product ideas:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14040708

Checking your most upvoted comments can also be a way to find topics that you should turn into a blog post. If the HN community found it interesting and suddenly gave you 10x the upvotes you usually get, then it's probably also useful to the wider world.

When I've been downvoted, it's usually because I've poorly researched something & provided incorrect information.

While I agree with you that arguments are not constructive, a healthy disagreement of differing opinions should not have the implicit correctness go to the person with the ability to downvote his adversary. Furthermore, there is a psychological aspect to voting positively for a negatively voted comment unless its something you absolutely agree with. I might lack tact, (which is hard to convey in text), but that doesn't make answers I've submitted that were backed by cited facts only to be downvoted on trivial meta issues weren't 100% correct.

I personally think the downvoting feature is fine, just really overused by people with much more karma that it makes the website less enjoyable to visit, especially for new people. And sure, one of the things I love about this site is that there are legitimate gurus on here, but a lot of people take their ability to downvote to classic Dunning Kruger syndrome.

Perhaps a quarter point penalty for downvoting to stop spamming and for people to consider the worthiness of a downvote or ignore. After all, Karma is how you treat others, and constantly negging them with no explanation isn't very kind at all especially for the majority of the people on this site that just want to learn.

You can only lose a maximum of 3 (4?) points on a single post. You can gain an unlimited number of points.

True, but each rebuttal is another potential shellacking.

People already do speak their minds, and heavy downvoting is often limited to comments that are unsubstantive. You may dislike the downvote, but I'd stop using this site if it were removed.

do you really think losing a bunch of internet points will reduce people's ability to speak their mind?

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