Toyota develops first neodymium-reduced, heat-resistant magnet for motors
greencarcongress.com
greencarcongress.com
Most wind turbines use electromagnets in their generators, plus gearing systems. So-called "direct drive" turbines use high strength permanent magnets and can have longer lifetimes since the gearbox is the fastest-degrading part of conventional turbines. But turbines with permanent magnet generators have been only a minority of the market, in part because affordable and assured supplies of key heavy rare earth elements are not available outside China. (Goldwind, the only wind turbine manufacturer presently with an all-direct-drive lineup, is Chinese.) Powerful magnets with less need for rare materials can improve wind turbines to charge EVs as well as motors to move them.
The main reason rare earth are expensive is that they mining is done in decades old tech fashion, and dirty as hell. China does not seem to mind as much, as long as it is controlling a strategic resource. Finding higher concentration deposits, and improving the process of extracting the rare earths elements is something I wish to happen more of...
This also seems to be underserved niche for start-up companies. From miners that I have talked with, this is a small-moving enterprise setup.
> On succeeding, he named the element dysprosium from the Greek dysprositos (δυσπρόσιτος), meaning "hard to get".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysprosium
(sorry for OT)
To explain what I am talking about way better than I ever could, this video is how heat treating steel will change it's properties and why different steels act the way they do. https://youtu.be/6jQ4y0LK1kY
You mean hypothesize
Why are magnetic motors of such interest to Toyota?
And magnets instead of electromagnets allow you to have brushless motors. You could go with a synchronous motor but I guess the efficiency is not very good
The induction torque speed curve is also very performant even when compared to PM machines so I don’t understand your criticism. Source: motor control engineer.
As per wikipedia
> An induction generator produces electrical power when its rotor is turned faster than the synchronous speed... An induction generator usually draws its excitation power from an electrical grid
Which is not what they want in a car
Also they do want good torque at zero speeds, while it can be done with induction motors it's not ideal
According to the article, the torque limitations are only for a poorly controlled drive current.
> Today, all the hybrids are powered by DC brushless drives, with no exceptions. The only notable uses of induction drives have been the General Motors EV-1; the AC Propulsion vehicles, including the tzero; and the Tesla Roadster.
> Induction machines are more difficult to control. The control laws are more complex and difficult to understand. Achieving stability over the entire torque-speed range and over temperature is more difficult with induction than with DC brushless. This means added development costs, but likely little or no recurring costs.
A hybrid has different characteristics and requirements from the motor than a purely electrical vehicle as well
[1] https://insideevs.com/video-primer-tesla-model-s-electric-mo...
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6strnb/model_3...
EDIT: Here's a bit of thought on why they might have switched technologies in the motor:
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/auto-industry/2017-tesla-mo...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/27/tesla-model-3-motor-designer-...
For EV applications one of the cool things about induction machines is that they can actually achieve higher efficiency at high speeds than a PM machine. This is because at high speeds the spinning magnets in a PM machine induce losses (so called eddy-current and hysteresis losses) which are difficult to suppress. In an induction machine you are controlling the field directly so it can be weakened at higher speeds with a control loop to directly optimize the losses vs. torque production. This means that there is a trade-off speed at which an induction machine becomes more efficient than a comparable PM machine.
To mitigate this issue in PMs some vehicle manufacturers have tried to do cool tricks like partially demagnetizing the magnets at high speeds to reduce losses, but this is very difficult to do without damaging the magnets permanently.
Motor size is approximately proportional to torque, not power, so you can imagine a small, low torque induction machine that is fast and will have better efficiencies than a corresponding PM machine. In stop and go traffic or low speed travel the PM machine typically has better efficiencies.
Personally I hope in the long run we end up with induction machines in our electric cars. 1) No safety issues with spinning magnets at high speed during an inverter failure, 2) no reliance on rare-earth materials, 3) the control of induction machines is very cool in its complexity and gives an additional degree of freedom on field flux that is only partially controllable in PM machines, and 4) induction machines have longer lifetimes as there is practically nothing to wear out aside from the bearings.
Yes, that's called overdriving the motor.
>> An induction generator usually draws its excitation power from an electrical grid
> Which is not what they want in a car
You can generate very nice sine waves using modern electronics, tri-phase is also not a problem.
> Also they do want good torque at zero speeds, while it can be done with induction motors it's not ideal
Triphase motors have fantastic torque at zero speeds, see also every (diesel-)electric locomotive ever produced.
To maybe put it another way, there is no way to charge a dead battery with an induction machine.
That's not true.
> You need a rotor field to generate power.
Residual magnetic field is enough to start the process, absent that a quick DC zap will do.
> In a permanent magnet machine this field comes from the magnet, but in an induction machine this comes from the motion of the stator field (Lenz' Law).
Yes. Fortunately rotors retain a bit of magnetism after you run them to a stop, which is enough to get things going again later on.
> To maybe put it another way, there is no way to charge a dead battery with an induction machine.
Yes there is, unless the induction machine is fresh from the factory and has never run at all.
As for the rotors and stators themselves, they are good old iron/steel laminates and will hold some magnetism just fine (they're laminates to cut down on the eddy currents). If the rotors themselves would be made out of copper the motor would not function at all, it needs a ferromagnetic part there to focus the field.
Source: have done a number of induction motor to windmill conversions. Also: have you ever tried any of this or are you coming at this from a theoretical angle?
Here is some good info for you:
Fortunately not everybody will take 'it can't be done' as the final answer :) It's not what can't be done in theory that matters but what can be done in practice.
I think there are other more significant trade-offs between induction and PM motors. Induction motors/generators are significantly heavier, and have significantly lower torque (i.e. can extract less lower at low speeds when used as generator). Their main attractiveness comes from lower cost, reliability, and decent efficiency at high speeds.
They are used by e.g. Tesla and in locomotives. That being said, IIRC PM motors do have some (minor) advantages, particularly for small motors.
The actual heat resistance is only of marginal benefit for automotive uses, where more cooling fins or a fan are usually better solutions.
This has led to several researchs aimed at reducing the strategical needs of these minerals in the Japanese industry.
"Toyota is trying to make electrified vehicles less dependent on Chinese minerals"
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/20/toyota-is-trying-to-make-ele...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-20/toyota-re...
Don’t forget Toyota is probably the biggest manufacturer of hybrid engines, and in their setup the cooling fluid runs through both the ICE and electric motors.
I used to work at a company that makes pumps with magnetic bearings. To pump hot liquids, we needed special magnets with higher Curie temperatures than traditional Neodymium magnets. Our high-temperature products had Samarium-Cobalt magnets and ran, if memory serves, up to almost 200°C.
https://supermagnetman.com/blogs/news/understanding-magnet-g...
Neodymium-iron-boron magnets can have a higher energy product than samarium-cobalt, but require additions of expensive/rare heavy rare earth elements to work well at elevated temperatures. (Or require special microstructure modifications like Toyota has developed.) SmCo magnets have had good high temperature performance from the beginning, but a lower energy product.
Other issues that discourage widespread substitution of SmCo magnets for NIB:
- Samarium is significantly rarer than neodymium in economically exploitable rare earth resources (see table 1 here: https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2013/1072/OFR2013-1072.pdf)
- The iron-boron balance of a neodymium-iron-boron magnet is cheap, whereas the cobalt in a SmCo magnet is relatively expensive.
The blog, and its linked Toyota page, both work well for me in the Materialistic(HN reader) WebView.
This is all I see..
So,
23 points by philipkglass 5 hours ago | flag | hide | past | web | favorite | 9 comments
would become,
23 points by philipkglass 5 hours ago | flag | hide | past | web | favorite | talk | 9 comments
That's where people and bots could post comments about the HTML/JS/CSS issues of the page in question and anything off-topic but page or site related. Come to think of it the talk page could also be where people could post "Yeah but Crystal" comments on Ruby threads and "Elon Musk is not all that" on SpaceX or Tesla threads. I honestly think this could reduce a good deal of the meta chatter on HN. Where could I go to prototype the idea? What do other think?
http://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-develops-new-magnet-for-ele...