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Comment by davesque | Hacker News Reader

American here:

I've had the problem at a few different times in my life that, whenever I actually suggested to guy friends that we hang out, they interpreted it as a pass and thought I was gay. I'm not making this up at all. I think part of the problem is not just the way that priorities change as we get older but the fact that the US seems to have an extremely closed-off and anxiety-ridden culture to begin with. Maybe, in a sense, people here have too much personal space and just aren't good at being around each other?

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I think this is a uniquely Anglo cultural thing, in the backdrop of a stricter gender norms formed out of industrialization. Everybody is so afraid of being seen as gay while maintaining a front of being politically correct about it (I suppose there is genuine fear of being publicly labelled a homophobe or a racist).

In almost all parts of the world, there's nothing wrong with grown men hanging out or grabbing drinks to share trial and tribulations of life.

I've noticed this when traveling in other countries or when dealing with people from outside of the US. I think that's why the majority of my friends in college were exchange students.

Perversely, in some very homophobic cultures, men hold hands with men because they are so homophobic that there is not even an insinuation that they might be willing to publicly show homosexual inclinations, so handholding is assumed platonic.

Which cultures?

Around the middle east, for one. I've seen this relatively frequently in Turkey.

Yes, this is common for Arab men -- when I was in Sudan men (even middle aged and older men) held hands walking down the street. To a westerner it just looks very odd, but it's normal for them.

However, I think your (gowld's) comment transfers a lot of cultural baggage and sexual-orientation lingo from western culture in a way that I think is quite rude. Those Sudanese guys weren't holding hands "peversely, because they're so homophobic", they're doing that because that's how they've grown up and it's a totally normal thing for male friends to do over there.

That's my understanding. It's not an expression of homophobia but just simply one of friendship.

I didn't want to be the first to say it, but it does feel very inappropriate and gay to ask another straight man that I barely know to hang out one-on-one.

Which means that you need to meet potential friends through and with a group which makes it a lot more difficult.

Why do you feel that way?

Well, I wouldn't invite a woman I barely knew to meet with me one-on-one unless I was trying to signal sexual interest to her. So I guess my brain is somehow trying to be consistent?

That's a common form of homo-phobia (phobia as in fear, not as in hate). It's the attitude I see in people insecure about their own sexuality, who see a problem where there is none.

Giving it another name ("homophobia", "insecure about their own sexuality") does not make the issue go away for the people who suffer from it.

You don't magically grow more confident about your sexuality (or your whatever) by hearing that you are insecure about it. Or at least, I don't know how.

I can also relate to the awkwardness of asking someone to hang out one-on-one. It isn't necessarily borne out of sexual insecurity, but rather out of social awkwardness.

How did you suggest it?

I can see "hey, let's hang out" in the generic form might be considered a bit odd and like a pass.

"Man, today was rough." ... "Yeah, same here. Want to grab a drink at the Kings Head this evening?"

I don't know anyone who would interpret the latter form as a pass. Because there's some justification, no matter how thin, and it's a concrete proposal to do something specific.

Just talk about girls a lot.

One of the guys I met in a bar at a language exchange (good places to meet other hetero guys btw) even joked about this when one of my other friends came over ("Hey we just met each other but both agree she's really hot (pointing to a girl) so we're going to hang out, and go find girls."). It was cool because we ended up with a group of decent guys to hit the town with.

Someone else mentions homophobia. It's not homophobia, just making sure you're on the same page.

Actually, I've got to say, while there are guys to steer clear of, I made a few decent male friends gaming (as in "the game"). It's worth checking out (if you're prepared to work on yourself if you need to) since you'll meet a lot of guys working on themselves or with decent attitudes (just avoid the ones you don't like).

for me, i'm more comfortable asking a girl out on a date than hanging out with a guy

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