Traces of Old Egyptian in Eurasian languages?
pannous.github.io
pannous.github.io
I think it's also interesting that they are using mother and father, considering that those words have commonalities in sound across large swathes of human language. Unless the author is also ready to argue Egyptian influence on Chinese, evidence should extend to other words.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_and_papa
EDIT:
Every dictionary I can find lists father as it, which alone would need explanation for how the article arrives at feathav using the same signs. I'll just link the most comprehensive one:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/10929802/Dictionary-of-Middle-Egy...
When you search, the relevant entry is the "plants 12" result.
Demotic and Coptic Egyptian is much better understood with the latter being still in use today.
What most people think of Egypt is actually fairly recent history people tend to refer to events which usually happened during or around the Ptolemaic Kingdom period, by that time the Egyptians have already lost the ability to read or speak the language of the old kingdom and today we are closer to Cleopatra than Cleopatra was to the pyramids as far as time goes.
Heck even if we take the biblical exodus story as a historic event then the pyramids were already ancient by the time Moses was stuttering let my peeps go.
As for the article I don’t exactly understand it’s premise they open with Sanskrit and Persian having shared history with European languages but as both are indo-European languages why is this surprising? AFIAK this was known and acccoeted even in the 19th century.
You think the pyramids are old? To the contrary, the north African Sahara is speculated to be as young as 5,400 years (although I remember reading something north of 100'000; indeed, it is not certain, probably fluctuating on and off for periods of time, too). I think that the pre-desert is the archetype of the reed fields, the paradise of the Egyptian mythology, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaru -- to top that off, could the tree of knowledge be symbolic for the rain forest that was in the Mediterranean basin before it flooded a handful of million years ago or afterwards as it swelled on and off further along?
The article is too conservative? The article makes a few points about the wider Danube valley being central to early PIE civilization and industry. Which resonates very well with me. There is no certain PIE homeland hypothesis but this fits with the Krugan hypothesis.
When the pyramids were built the Sahara has already existed but it didn’t creep that far up north as it did today.
The symbolism is important and the table presented in TFA is amazing at that.
> I think it's also interesting that they are using mother and father, considering that those words have commonalities in sound across large swathes of human language.
The t/d in * m?t- is more significant than that, whereas the p in pt is less significant across world wide languages.
I'm just missing a node to Proto-Afro-Asiatic.
> Unless the author is also ready to argue Egyptian influence on Chinese, evidence should extend to other words.
Please compare Punic [zayin] (Phoenician letter 工 = S - weapon) and Chinese [工] ("gon" etc., whence mandarin 工具 - tool). Obviously both are related to metal tools, perhaps a spade stuck in the ground symbolizing mining for ore, craft, and metal tools all in one sign, and in a different interpretation the outflow of molten metal from a primitive furnace. Once you have horses, trade is a matter of weeks or months. Metal working spread slowly, and with it the words. I don't know if asia discovered smelting independently, though, I'm just hypothesizing.
The difference is that "mother" is a much older idea and the m- in principle a reference to the sound of suckling.
[zayin]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
[工]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%B7%A5.
PS:
> EDIT: Every dictionary I can find lists father as it, which alone would need explanation
Well, it is rather close to pt (stone), which in turn is close to Pth as in the name of the god. So there is an element of veneration (stone old anyone?) that isn't present in good ol' papa (just as some languages use different personal pronouns in different registers of speech). This link is strong as pater is still used in a religious sense. or comparing as/at: turkic "ata" (father) and "at" (horse, perhaps also venerated), which is the metaphorical head (cf. capital, cattle, aleph as god and head of the alphabet, A being a top-side-down bull head symbol). I Norse as "As" is a god again (whence "asgard"). As is also a singular unit in Latin for either a single dot on a dice (whence poker ace; we also still speak of faces of a die), or prominently as the nomination of roman pennies, which incidentally have the head of a god on its observe side which is hence colloquially called heads. Oh and isn't head somewhat rhyming with "it"? Egyptian [hr] seems to exhibits the same dualism, even if the different etymologies aren't clear (xal is mentioned, but not ħər - chief, free, noble [2]). The language as a whole over time is highly self modifying, and the result is like gene code really really tightly compressed from a really small seed expanding with exponential growth. There's certainly more to this, computational methods are gaining ground with time but archeology is a game against the time. There's a baseline to human language in most of it's dimensions. So while I don't know if the concept of parenthood was fundamental to evolution (I mean I guess so, but in what time frame), but one thing is clear if modern apes reveal any clue, the first phoneme was a skreek: "Ah Ah Ahh" (or "it it it" or something) -- cf. <https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ook!
[hr]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B8%A5r#Egyptian [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Afro-Asi...
PPS: At that I find funny how Morse-code, as in mono-phonetic strictly rhythm based speech, is comparable to language, and how by extension of the concept, many concepts rely on ordering and a representation in numbers. So I'm curious how important maths skills were to the development of language. Basically, human speech uses a highly variable non linear numeral system to code messages. The idea of an assembly language as intermediate to spoken language reminds me of Chomsky's universal grammar. The foundations of logic must be "univalent" simply because the brain structure has to adhere to it, geometrically, combinatorially, categorically, etc. p. p. Basically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_tenth_rule
https://archive.org/details/formationofalpha00petr
Petrie's tables are better... but they're still at best interesting and inconclusive.
(Also, although people cited /it/ above, Thesuarus Linguae Aegyptiae transliterates it /jtj/ (yty - long vowels rather than glottals); and claiming that's similar to pit is pretty ridiculous... If there's a genetic intra-Afroasiatic relation with that root (which I'm not sure there is...) it'd make a lot more sense to connect it with Ugaritic 'ad... Which I don't think it makes sense to do... And in support of that... not even the out-there Starling database makes that connection (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basen... // http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basen... )).
So it was a bit dry, and you were amused anyway. That leaves me confused.
I think the j in jt is a remnant of jw (true), jw-?t, (biological father), but only because jw is the only egyptian j- lexeme I know so far, because I like to connect it to IO and Jo- and the jedi knights. For p- I'm not so sure, but something like grand-father or god-father would fit the theme, or less familiar for us distant from the Neolithicum, the stone-father (grey/old, hard/strong, inanimate/false vs true, crafty/fundamental).
raoulduke already addressed the comments regarding attempting to extend it without taking into account my prior note regarding transcription of Egyptian.
Morse code is an encoding, not a language. The same string of Morse code could, theoretically, represent two different meanings depending on which language was actually encoded. That's like trying to prescribe some sort of attributes to language by looking at ASCII. It's meaningless; they're artificial constructs with mathematical patterns because they were constructed with mathematical patterns...
Which is a fruitful approach [1]. That said, I doubt everything else you wrote, too. I can't make sense of your comment.
> The final point being, that if there actually was such a strong symbolic influence that it managed to survive thousands of years to make it to modern English, you wouldn't expect all these other forms to have also developed using the same rules that led to arm.
I'm not quite sure which "same rules that led to arm" you are talking about, but If you mean sound laws, then it is quite obvious that "such a strong symbolic influence" might lead to a sound law in the first place. Not just "Arm" but a bunch of symbols.
You probably don't speak German so let give you another hint: An archaic German name for the eagle is "Arn" (now "Adler"). Coincidence? The symbolism is quite strong with this one, as the figure of the German parliament and incidentally the Egyptian hieroglyphs are heavy on ornithology, too. And it is notable that other PIE languages derive arm not from latin "bracchium" (from greek ...), hinting at a more complicated case and indeed, perhaps Egyptian influence (why not). However I'm sure you'd find the difference between h₃érō (>arn) and h₂er- (>arm) appreciable. I don't so much, because you would just have to go a few more steps back, perhaps, to find a common root.
There is an insurmountable amount of theories and you dare to arm chair a hazard guess that Egyptain as root would be out of the question base on hypothetical sound laws that are in no small part based on the assumption that Egyptian couldn't have played a role in it. That, my friend, is circular reasoning (and appeal to authority).
bʰer- ("to bear, carry") fits the usage of arms anyway, and I'm sure an eagle carrying away a bunny is an impressive sight, too -- but I'm rambling.
Still, there's more: Bird wings are like arms, aren't they? Ancient Greek pterón* -- there's er in it, that's good enough for me, pashto has wozzar; Persian has bal, Latin ala -- still close enough -- and Somali has baal ... not too distant to Vol as in French "voliere" (aviary), from Latin volo (I fly), from weǵʰ (to bring transport). Zazaki (according to wiktionary), literally has per* (wing) as metaphor for arm. Sanskrit has pakṣa, Punjabi has paṅkh, Urdu has pankh, too, but Punjabi has also par. Maori has parpau. This is most likely of pre-PIE origin, I think. There's also navajo atʼaʼ; Quechua: raphra, rapra, likra, Kannada: rekke, Malayalam: ചിറക് (ml) (ciṟak). I rest my case. Obviously I am just picking the translations that I deem a fit and obviously there are gaping holes in my argument. I'm writing an internet comment, after all, not a dissertation. So I can reasonably lean a bit out of the window and try to read from cracked pots. I Imagine a pre historic hominid flapping the arms and screeching "ar ar" to describe a bird, an eagle perhaps.
Anyhow *bʰer- would explain bracchium, somewhat, disregarding any sound laws which I didn't bother yet to learn because THAT seems implausible, to derive "laws" from hypothesis and being so fixed on them as if they had been actual law (Which, given nationalism and racism isn't all that far fetched, but still a far cry from a natural law).
Although, wiktionary doesn't have the translations to Egyptian for either of these words and I haven't installed a proper font to read the table from the article, so I'm kind missing the point?
> Greek ἁρμόζω, related to putting together
compile<collect<carry
[1] Zhang, Lecun "Byte-Level Recursive Convolutional Auto-Encoder for Text". https://arxiv.org/abs/1802.01817
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration_of_Ancient_Egy...
"The actual pronunciations reconstructed by such means are used only by a few specialists in the language. For all other purposes, the Egyptological pronunciation is used, but it often bears little resemblance to what is known of how Egyptian was pronounced."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language#Phonology
In this following quote, note the move from /tut/ to /tawat/, due to the transcribed U actually being W, because only consonants were written.
"For example, the name twt-ꜥnḫ-ı͗mn is conventionally pronounced /tuːtən.ˈkɑːmən/ in English, but, in his lifetime, it was likely to be pronounced something like [taˈwaːt ˈʕaːnxu ʔaˈmaːn]."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language#Egyptologica...
The bottom line is that we don't even know whether the Egyptian word for "arm" had an /a/-like sound. The symbol is actually the Egyptian "ayin" (ꜥ), not "A". In the same way, the vulture is "alef" (ꜣ), not "A".
Also, this is all ignoring the tendency in the area to simplify writing systems through acrophony, in which the logographic symbol is converted to a phonetic one via its initial phonology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrophony
> I Imagine a pre historic hominid flapping the arms and screeching "ar ar" to describe a bird, an eagle perhaps.
This is actually an anti-argument for you. This aligns with the same type of argument for "mama"- and "papa"-like sounds throughout the world: That the sound originates from onomatopoeia or a similar link and not through linguistic influence or origin.
> ... disregarding any sound laws which I didn't bother yet to learn because THAT seems implausible, to derive "laws" from hypothesis and being so fixed on them as if they had been actual law...
You're misunderstanding the causality here. We call them laws precisely because they accurately explain the sound changes. Same as we describe physical laws because they explain the physics we witness. Not the other way around.
"[Grimm's law] establishes a set of regular correspondences between early Germanic stops and fricatives and the stop consonants of certain other centum Indo-European languages (Grimm used mostly Latin and Greek for illustration)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm's_law
My final statement on this is that, as far as I can tell, this entire thought process is nothing but the pigeon-hole principle as played out in linguistics. There are only so many productive sounds and many languages. Of course there will be some that look similar by sheer coincidence, especially when one takes such a flexible stance on phonetics and meaning when attributing links.
As I look back I do see a like half-paragraph ridiculous suggestion of apparently genetic connection between Egyptian and European. Before it was commonly known that Egyptian is an Afroasiatic language, there were attempts (usually with racial undertones) attempting to link the glorious and regal Egyptian with Eurasian languages. It's a worthless hypothesis.
It also looks like people may have been looking for and having trouble finding solid Egyptian lexicons: aaew.bbaw.de/tla/
(The one that really bothered me was the (obviously incoherent) "Hathor = hut+hor Hüter of Herds"... Hathor means "House/Estate/Temple of Horus"). The whole thing is just ridiculous.)
*There's at least secondary cuneiform influence by Wadi el-Hol (which I think was more likely 15th or 14th century).
rather, the hieroglyphic influence on the aesthetics of the (written) language.
If you look at the pt hieroglyph, the lower form might be a roof I think. Of course, my confusion of pt and pr in the previous post shows an aptitude to jump to conclusions. But when Peter<Petrus<??? has no certain etymology, leaps of faith are inevitable. And while I understand that research is always careful to be skeptical, so am I when you say the hypothesis couldn't be. I'm not necessarily defending the theory from the featured article, because a common ancestor can come through a variety of origins. Anyway, the Egyptians are famous anyway, so they are the first go to for a theory.
Also, your claim is evidently wrong. The Bet glyph looks very different to the pr glyph.
I was initially trying to formulate a thought about writing, because it can show patterns of language on a deeper level or at least from a different perspective. After all, verbal communication involves more than phonetics. There are definitely words that have been read incorrectly and proliferated -- e.g. reading gamma for ypsilon, omega for digamma; although I have no evidence at hand this shouldn't be hard to believe.
This was constructive for me, as I hadn't made the connection from pr to beta, before. Thank you.
I likely compounded your confusion by referring to the grapheme as pr; whereas it is in fact Gardiner's O4, the monosyllabic /h/ (http://msheflin.blogspot.com/search/label/Early%20Alphabet - take the chart beyond /b/ with a grain of salt; I haven't updated it in years). This isn't my theory... this is basically the only consensus view on Proto-Sinaitic. Please stop wading into a crazy complex and insular, highly esoteric academic subject and then getting mad at me when you misunderstand my comments and attempt to construct a new orthodoxy around them...
The only connection between pr and b(y)t is semantic. Once you move from pure ideograms to logograms or abjads that wholly breaks down.
[1]: Hoch, James (1997) Middle Egyptian Grammar, Mississauga: Benben Publications, ISBN 0920168124, page 15
I agree, the presentation is loose and wild. At least, I don't see it creating any specific context. And there is no motivation given for the proposed translation. But as words go, the translation speaks for itself. Hor meaning observer is Proto-Afro-Asiatic [1], that relates to Hüter (protector). Hr is also being connected to xal face, surface, upon; which is, at least today, a common metaphor. The hyroglyph is a head on-face. "Head of state, family", etc. has the same connotation. In the sense of the sky, which is the roof and surface of the world, hor has a divine aspect, the falcon being king of the sky, figuratively. And the roof is "on" the house protecting the inhabitants. xal meaning ruler is very productive (if I say so myself), and as it stands a ruler is nothing without an army, an order. Further, face and sky can be linked to vision and light respectively, as in over-see-r. While the falcon is know for good eyesight and vision is a very common metaphor for knowledge. So Hor is a spiritual guide.
J/K: Hor was probably into (H)ornithology, too. And Order (whence Horde). And Oration (which can be heared - eye and ear being close). And Orthography (which you can see). Half of these words are of uncertain origin.
For symbols it doesn't hurt to be ambiguous. So Hathor might just be the house of the house of the houses.
Obviously the article resonates well with me. I have a hunch that hwt-ke-ptah (house, soul, ptah) was the old school of architecture - hence Pythagoras. The word calculate is from a word for stone, which is pt (egy. stone), too. And in terms of counting, a kind of bank would be another civil service. But the service of a temple was likely variable. The identifaction of the god as well. Ptah - pater is just too inviting a link to make, so I think ptah is the deified founding father, the temple having been in Memphis, central to the unification of egypt.
Also, memphis was called "white walls", so much for the racism.
[1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Afro-Asi...
It's literally just gibberish.
There’s a pretty good episode of Lexicon Valley on this topic (see cavebabies say ‘mama’)
Indeed, but while plosives are impossible in the uterus, humming is possible ("hummmmmmmm...") though it's likely not audible, it might resonate at deeper frequencies. After all they cry right when they come out and must have trained well for such vigorous performance.
Otherwise, hums are surely linked to pleasant and primitive, familiar emotions. A simple ADSR envelope around a hum gives quite a lot of expressiveness, too ("ha?" "aha!" "haha" "ahhh" "a ha ha" only with m, i.e. "hm?").
Also the ma syllable is linked to the sound of suckling (hence breasts is mama in Latin). Also, we say mother-tongue probably for a reason: Mothers are much more involved in early child rising and hence in teaching language. I guess that is evident in bilingual families if not taken special care of?
Do the random italics and French-style quotes mean something that I just don’t understand, or was the whole thing actually just kind of insane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_strong_verb#Origin_an...