Hacker News Reader

There aren't really any clues as to how a computer works on an iphone. There isn't even a visible filesystem. It's no wonder students today have no idea how a computer works.

This! I'm very concerned that we are growing a population that is more and more monitored by their devices and has less and less understanding of how they work and how they or even if they are being monitored.

Aye, I second this, got me really pissed off when fellow CS student told me he has ''experience'' in using Iphone extensively, and that counts towards computing.

Makes you wonder what does computing mean to people nowadays.

I ask this out of genuine interest... why does it matter? Why’d it piss you off?

Not OP but, it's the classic Dunning-Kruger effect, they know so little about how to use a computer that they think that using a iPhone is a skill that is equivalent. This usually isn't a problem for most people but this person is in CS, where you would expect them to have at least passing knowledge in computers to join the major.

It is a computer, of a different design.

A jet fighter is a computer with wings. I don't think we should expect pilots to be computer literate the same way a software programmer needs to be.

Was correcting several statements that mobile devices aren’t computers. Lots of “computer knowledge” had to be aquired in the 90s due to the poor design of wintel boxes.

Again, why? FWIW I have a fancy degree in computer science and spent my childhood rebuilding and scraping together old 2/3/486 boxes. Yet I think it’s terrific that someone would be interested enough to enroll in a CS program without having wintel/Linux boxbuilding trivia knowledge.

The perception of what makes a viable CS major needs to evolve past what those born during the “Personal Computer” era think it should be.

I do agree with that and I have seen quite a few brilliant programmers be born in classes but there is a point where you start to expect them know some basic stuff like what a router, IDE and script are so that I don't have to explain them in full just to say how to make something work.

thirding this.

In the bad old days computers weren't wide spread but just by virtue of having one you would learn programming / tech skills. Today computers are everywhere but owning one doesn't teach you anything as fundamental functionality is hidden/locked away from the user in the name of being "consumer friendly".

I wonder if those born between 1988 and 2002 will be the last of the so-called naturally computer literate.

Wait, the previous generation had no phones at all. Do you mean that today's generation use phones instead of computers? In that case, I understand your point.

This reminds me of a story I recently heard where a student at a digital arts college reported they were saving their file inside photoshop instead of a folder.

It sounds bizarre - because they were using an iPad/iPhone instead of a computer.

Classic: http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-comput...

"what's a computer?"

looks like there is some truth in that ad

I'd argue something a bit different. Coding is far more accessible today and far more visible as a field one could get a job in than ever before. As such, you have way more students trying to learn some introductory CS. Maybe the proportion of CS learners is going up while the proportion with more technical literacy stayed the same?

I hope you weren't too smug about knowing to turn on the monitor. I can't remember the last time I've had to do so. Remember, there are no intuitive interfaces, only familiar ones.

A lot of these kids probably learned to program on a laptop, so they've never used anything that didn't wake from sleep upon opening.

A lot don't have a clue about programming before uni they just like playing games and saw the word computer in the degree

I can't remember the last time I've had to do so.

I do, but that's mainly because of working with older and/or more professional devices which don't (want to?) consume power even when technically off. But for the rest, yup, doesn't really happen that often.

there are no intuitive interfaces, only familiar ones

Most screens in the office, when 'off', look like a matte black box with a single clearly visible button with a dim light. You can claim it's familiar because nearly every techincal appliance has a power button, but on the other hand: I am quite sure if you'd give this thing to a homo sapiens or similar, arguably not familiar with a button, it would not take too long befoer that button would get pressed.

Or maybe the student just had a brainfart. People make stupid mistakes sometimes, or fail to see a completely obvious solution. It happens to everyone.

> Having taught some introductory CS courses a few years ago, the amount of struggling with basic things like file naming, directory hierarchies, and even simple hardware use was a constant distraction.

Or to put it the other way: users (future would-be programmers) are being distanced[sic] from how the machines work. Even at the most rudimentary level.

Frankly, I'm not surprised. Interfaces are systematically being dumbed down in the name of usability. Users may be buying powerful computers, but they are using appliances. Pieces of shiny machinery that, to all intents and purposes, work with magic. [Queue A.C. Clarke quote here.]

The immediate downside is that when the interface is dumbed down to the level of non-confusion for the large masses, the features that power users would find appealing are being stripped off.

Curiosity may have killed the cat, but what happens when curiosity itself is being killed?

Familiarity with how computers work arguably peaked during the early-mid PC era. The first computer that I used was an IBM 360. Basically, someone showed me how to punch cards, and how to enter my data. After submitting the job, I'd find out the next day whether it crashed, or completed properly. And after a few tries, I got my results.

But nowhere in that process did I know anything about IBM 360s, or how to program or run them. I more-or-less understood the mathematics involved in the data processing. And I could somewhat parse the Fortran. But I had no concept of anything like a directory hierarchy.

With an IBM XT 286, on the other hand, it was all in my face.

> Familiarity with how computers work arguably peaked during the early-mid PC era.

Now there's an interesting observation. I'm not quite sure whether you're right, but quite possibly.

Looking around my local libraries and bookstores, most of the books that deal with using personal computers do seem to be from the 90s/early 2000s era. The question is whether the decline in these books indicate that they are not needed any more, or that they are not wanted anymore (due to "hidden complexity")?

> With an IBM XT 286, on the other hand, it was all in my face.

Earlier in the pre-PC age, for the hobbyists you had similar experiences with home computers like Tandy RadioShack, ZX spectrum, Commodore Vic-20 or 64, not to mention the Amigas and Ataris (and all the others I’m old enough to have forgotten).

Early Macs also let you mess around (and mess up) your system too.

It was an exciting time in computing indeed, but it did in no way start with the PC.

Yes, it was sloppy of me to say "PCs". I meant personal computers, more generally. Which arguably includes all the pre-PC ones.

I believe they were called "home computers", then?

Can’t help but wonder if in another 40 years, if this sentiment be viewed as being absurd, similar to how we’d find hypothetical comments from 35-40 years ago as absurd: personal computers being nothing more than calculator or hobby, and “not a real computer since it came already assembled and someone else already wrote the software!”

We recently got a junior-dev straight out of finishing his CS degree. And he didn't know you could "extend" your desktop and show different things on each side by plugging in a monitor. When quizzed, he told me he's "always just had a laptop", and never a monitor next to it I assume. He was then equally perplexed by the resolution and corresponding font-size change that occurred on the monitor because it could now run its own native resolution rather than what the laptop screen was forcing it to mirror.

It was quite eye-opening to see that.

I think there is something to be said for what classes don't teach you. You can ace a test but have very little practically knowledge if you don't work with stuff outside of class. I honestly think that you learn 10-50x more in practical knowledge from the organizations that you can join in college than the classes themselves.