In 2017, VR Headset Shipments for Most Top Brands Went Down | Hacker News Reader

In 2017, VR Headset Shipments for Most Top Brands Went Down

nwn.blogs.com

42 pointsJabavuAdams49 comments

> In many more words: 2017 sales of "full VR" rigs were flat or even negative, with Rift shipping slightly more HMDs in 2016 than 2017, and HTC Vive shipping less last year than the year before.

By those numbers, PC VR sales are only down in 2017 if you exclude Windows MR. That seems a bit arbitrary, as the Odyssey at least is apparently a fairly decent system overall.

Again by these figures, sales of all PC and console VR systems are up except for the most expensive, the Vive, which was $800 US for most of 2017. That seems to support optimism that future PC VR price reductions will improve sales: especially an end to the cryptocoin-driven GPU cost (and availability) crisis.

It also has to be said that people with inside information have publicly expressed skepticism about the SuperData numbers: https://twitter.com/PalmerLuckey/status/959172783765729280

(Repost of my comment: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2018/01/vr-sales-shipments-2017-sup... )

One thing I didn’t see in the comments or the article: the price rise/shortages in GPUs which is impacting those interested in pc gaming (and thus vive/oculus VR systems).

I’ve actually been warming up to play with VR more but am concerned first-party eGPU solutions (I.e a MacBook eGPU box) will get delayed.

I definitely think this is part of the story. Most people need to upgrade their systems to support VR, but it is becoming prohibitively expensive to get a decent card.

Popping a mobile phone into a VR headset is a pain, as is all the cables on the high end (desktop) VR platforms. I am curious how Oculus Go[1], launching soon changes the game (if it does). At the very least, it opens the market to a lot of iOS users. Thoughts?

[1] https://www.oculus.com/go/

Can't use VR if you can't get a decent GPU

Can't get a decent GPU if you can't get a decent CPU

Can't use your CPU when RAM doubles and trebles in price.

ETA: I looked up my graphics card and it had also doubled in 'value' since I bought it. From my cold, dead hands though.

I have purchased multiple VR headsets (the kind that your phone goes into, not "full vr") and each one has massively hurt my face. The Cardboard ones hurt my nose from the very second I put it on or hold it to my face (while using it and for some time after). The only way to get a good picture is to have instant and intense pain in my nose.

Google Daydream is a bit better. With the nice fabric and straps it takes about 1-2 minutes before the intense head pain starts. Not only is it insanely heavy and makes any experience hurt my neck, but also, it hurts my nose too! (I do wear glasses, but each of these products says that it doesn't matter and that glasses-wearers can use VR too. Not sure if that is a lie or if this affects non-glasses-wearers just as much).

Additionally, the content available in the Play Store is not of great quality, in my opinion. The paid content is also a mess, not just the free stuff. There are some neat games, but they don't work well (lose save state, etc) and everything hurts physically after 1-2 minutes on a $100 system.

I'll wait many many years before trying to purchase again. It feels like the '80s VR rush all over again, where actually using the product falls so far short of the expectation that I'm disillusioned.

It's true that I have not yet tried a "Full VR" system - but they have been too expensive so far and I am not certain that they would be any less awful of an experience for me to use.

Do other people have the same head pain issues as I do? I would certainly expect that the decline in sales is mostly to do with people finding out that actually using VR isn't very fun (yet).

Edit: I bought a $10 game, Eclipse I think, where I have had to play the same intro level to the game like 8-10 times, because my nose hurts so much that I have to take a break. But you can't take a break or you lose your save state (I have spent more time than I would like to admit trying to find a way to save the state, this game looks super neat). But now if I want to play this game I paid $10 for, I have to play the same sequence again and again, and try to finish before the nose pain is unbearable. At this point, I am losing interest in the game despite its amazing reviews and my previous intense dedication to playing it.

> Do other people have the same head pain issues as I do?

I don't with the Oculus.

That being said, most phone enclosures are cheap hastily put together plastic gubbins that only deserve to be trashed.

I got an HP Mixed Reality headset this week. Every phone headset I own has either not stayed on my face or been very uncomfortable. My HP has no discomfort issues at all. Even friends with glasses have been using it fine.

If I have to pick something I guess it does catch on my hair sometimes when I remove it too fast.

>Do other people have the same head pain issues as I do?

Anybody who's ever worn a helmet can tell you they are painful. If that problem could be solved, we'd all be wearing helmets while driving our cars. But nobody likes having things strapped to their head (due to pain), so we don't.

I'm curious why you ever thought otherwise? Did all the hype simply override your ability to actually imagine using the product? Seems like the kind of flaw in reasoning to compensate for if people are successfully running businesses off of exploiting it.

But maybe I'm just a semi-vindicated nay-sayer.

> Anybody who's ever worn a helmet can tell you they are painful.

I've been riding bicycles with a helmet on my head for 15 years, sometimes with a ride as long as 5-6 hours, and not once have I ever felt a single bit of pain on my head from a helmet. Perhaps some initial discomfort while trying to get the strap to click in, but certainly no pain while using the helmet. The situation isn't comparable.

Edit: In fact, I would suggest that I consider most of my bike helmets to actually be comfortable overall.

> I'm curious why you ever thought otherwise?

First, I never claimed I thought that VR wouldn't hurt. Second, I had absolutely no knowledge of the products physical features when purchasing, as the units I purchased in store were in a box, and the Daydream I bought online.

I do not regret the purchases simply because they hurt to use. I'm glad I bought them so that I can be a part of this VR experiment and see what all the fuss is about. Trying out VR has helped me understand the industry and where its painpoints are (literally) and I'm glad of that. I also expect the state of VR to improve over time and I will definitely try it again in the future.

Well... I was thinking more of armored helmets, but I suppose I didn't say that. Armored helmets are pretty bad, due to the extra weight. A foam helmet is comparatively tolerable.

>I'm glad I bought them so that I can be a part of this VR experiment and see what all the fuss is about.

The 'fuss' is hype. If you wanted to invest, you probably should have gave your money away in exchange for stock shares or something. Otherwise, the 'fuss' is just no-strings attached money for a disappointment-by-design product.

> Anybody who's ever worn a helmet can tell you they are painful.

I have a motorbike and wear my helmet about two hours every day, longer if I take a trip on it. It has never been painful.

It's snug and it can feel a bit weird the first few times (specially around the ears), but if you use a helmet and it hurts, I'd definitely get another helmet (hint: different brands have slightly different shells, so maybe try a few different makes).

I also have a GearVR and it took ages fiddling with the straps to get a comfortable fit. I can't use it for long, but it has nothing to do with pain: The phone I use gets very hot and it's so close to the eyes that gets uncomfortable. Also, the lenses fog up.

> Also, the lenses fog up.

If you get fogging at the beginning of the session, that dissipates later, try putting the headset without the phone on top of your head for a few minutes before you start using it. You can spend this time downloading updates or new things to try or just goofing off. It will allow the lenses to come closer to your body temperature so moisture from your breath doesn't condense on them anymore.

I only got to try one "phone VR" setup and it was a very underwhelming experience. There was very little synchronization between head movements and actual change of the image; I didn't feel immersed into the virtual world at all, it was more like watching a 3D movie. I wonder what was your experience with immersion in those phone setups?

I also got to try Vive and it's completely another league - I'd say it's as much better as it is more expensive :)

I have an Oculus Rift that I use for three setups: Sim Racing, Sim Flying, and playing Elite Dangerous.

I've been able to put in multiple hours in all of them, with two caveats.

First, I take my glasses off. There's just no way that's gonna be comfortable ever. You can buy prescription lens inserts for the Oculus, but my prescription is mild so it doesn't bother me.

Second, you have to loosen the straps. If the headset is leaving an indent in your face it's too tight! I learned that the hard way..

I had to buy specific glasses for my Oculus, I can't see a thing without glasses underneath. I got the cheapest pair of kids' glasses I could find online, and they fit pretty well.

However, I still have a bit of a problem, I need a fan directed at my face so they don't start to fog up, especially if I'm walking around and sweating a bit.

Interesting! Okay, thanks for the info. I did guess that the "glasses are okay" business was more marketing than reality, so it's interesting to hear you say you wouldn't use it with your glasses. Everything in VR gets real blurry for me if I try without my glasses, and I'm not ready to buy special prescription VR glasses either, so I'll wait a bit.

I'll try looser straps on my Daydream next time I try it, but it'll be hard to keep it on my head that way too I think.

Thanks again for the info.

PSVR works great with glasses though. I have quite large glasses and they fit just fine.

Note that the PSVR floats before your eyes, hanging by a frame mounted on your head. The oculus and rift push directly on your face

There are a lot of third-party foam covers made for the Vive and Rift that you can buy. https://vrcover.com

The Vive headset hurts my big schnoz.

As far as the sales go, my impression from using a high-end system is: this is amazing, but a couple years away. And since I'm not much of a gamer, what I really want is AR, which is probably a bit further.

Google Earth VR is the most amazing product I've used in the last few years, though.

Of the big 3 (Rift, Vive, and PSVR), the PSVR is the most comfortable. The difference is the weight the set rests on your head, like a hat, as opposed to the top of your face. It sounds like you should try that out if you get a chance.

I would have several actual uses for VR, and from the top of my head I'd kill to have proper depth perception and enhanced controls while modeling the solids I have to make.

The headsets make today would meet my requirements perfectly. The price is not an issue. As a coder, I wouldn't have any problems with just a library exposing the display and sensors.

However the VR market is just full of BS and lock-in. I'm not moving an inch on any of these closed platforms.

Razer has an OSVR headset. Oculus is OSVR-compatible. Even Vive has a (less supported) OSVR plugin. What's your complaint?

There's also a Khronos standard in the works: https://www.khronos.org/openxr .

have you actually looked at oculus' API? it is just a library exposing the displays and sensors, and it's probably the most vendor-specific of them.

you could #ifdef between it and any other VR library with minimal effort.

SteamVR literally lets you build for Vive or Oculus with identical code and builds (using Unity)

VR is awesome, but strapping a cell phone to your face with magnifying lenses is stupid. The technology needs to progress beyond this paradigm to ever be successful. Even the high end “real vr” HMD’s are just a cellphone strapped to your face. Perhaps once solid state optical waveguides are a thing we will see mass adoption. But the current gen is extremely lackluster and frankly useless once the initial wow factor wears off.

Saying that VR headsets are cellphones strapped to your face is just flatly wrong. There is a lot of work poured into VR when you start talking about room-scale plus intuitive control solutions.

I would far from say that it is extremely lackluster considering what I've experienced and worked with thus far.

I believe they are referring to those Android VR headsets like "Gear VR" by Samsung.

Here we come across a great Trough.

Aside from perhaps Rez Infinite, VR doesn't really have a killer app yet. Almost no other title can deliver a compelling experience without risking motion sickness and eyehurt, and Rez Infinite just isn't enough for J. Random Gamer.

The reason we don't see a killer "business" app yet is because of the resolution. Once we solve this, and figure out a way to scan and accurately represent the location of interfaces like keyboards, we will see a rush of killer apps.

As for games... locomotion constraints really do a number on what works in practice. Carmack's inside-out tracking seems to be coming along well, but then the problem shifts to securing a large enough play area.

Yeah resolution is basically the problem here. My future of computing idea is essentially a desk with a headset, keyboard and mouse.

I'd buy and use this setup if it had the resolution for a lot of money and take it to work (noisy office, literally no reason for me to see around me, open offices have a lot to answer for).

There's no shortage of compelling experiences without motion sickness and eyehurt. SuperHot, Robo-Recall, Doom, Chronos, Rec-room, Echo Arena, Elite: Dangerous, Virtual Rickality, etc. are all great.

FWIW, I would not recommend Elite: Dangerous as an experience without motion sickness. The game features artificial yaw, pitch, and roll. Even though I'm fairly experienced with VR, and fairly resistant to motion sickness, my first few sessions with E:D were notably disorienting. Yaw in particular is discouraged for comfortable VR experiences.

Once that's passed, E:D also features a lot of small text. Also, the default behavior of the cockpit control panels in VR - appear when you look at them, disappear when you're not looking exactly at them - encourages some head movements that will give you neck pains really quick.

All that said, there's something really compelling about feeling the tight cockpit of a Sidewinder, being able to stand up and walk around the cockpit of an AspX, or looking through the glass floor to line up a landing in an AspX.

+1 to SuperHot & Virtual Rickality, too.

You're probably right on Elite. I never found it a problem because the pace of gameplay is fairly slow and the cockpit takes up a lot of your field of view but experiences of motion sickness are highly subjective.

I'd wager my entire lifesavings that the stickiest, highest DAU/MAU app for vr - SO FAR - is porn like the SLR app. Somewhere in Oculus there's a dashboard showing user retention rates by most commonly used app and SLR or Honey Select or whatever else is at the top. But they can't say that at a press conference.

Nobody wants to be the one to tell their buddy "hey check out this porn on my VR headset" so it's not growing as fast as it could via word of mouth. But it's a very very big step up in terms of UX.

Would someone pay $300-400 for a better porn experience? Probably not.

But if we're talking about "of the people who already own a VR HMD and still use it often rather than letting it collect dust, what do they actually use it for?"

The answer is porn.

Meh, not really man. Porn is tired and obvious. The real killer app for VR is social interaction with other people. It’s quite an experience to see someone else in VR standing before you and interact with them naturally as you would in real life.

Considering texting has more adoption than video chat even though video is very accessible, I don't see how VR interaction is going to make a really big dent.

Texts will be more widespread due to their transactional nature. You can’t really do video chat unless you’re ready to sit down and have a conversation.

Voice still dominates video too.

My first reaction here is: "Why not both!?" in one.

But, you do have a point. However, it's going to be a long time until the VR technology catches up, there's no great social experience (as far as I know) that isn't sitting at the bottom of the Uncanny Valley.

That just raises the question of what kind of social VR experience would you like -- should it be the Metaverse, or the Matrix? If the Metaverse, you're going to have to accept the uncanniness -- giant dicks, Ugandan Knuckles, and all.

It may be that people are willing to put up with the drawbacks of the tech because porn is so rewarding, but that doesnt mean the problems went away.

FWIW, I have a Vive, it's not collecting dust, and I've never used it for porn, nor do I feel inclined to.

SuperHot VR is pretty close to a killer app for me. Cool mechanics like that scaled up could definitely keep me interested - I burned hours and hours on my roommate's PSVR last Summer exclusively playing SuperHot

I recently got the PS4 VR system, and....wow.

I expected a glitchy system that was too early to be useful but had neat moments.

What I got was a glitchy system that has some useful parts already and the neat moments really show the promise.

Despite it being not very realistic, my brain was happy to adjust. Playing Skyrim with peripheral vision and being able to reach out to the side and snag some item without changing the direction I was moving was surprisingly amazing. I found my body reacting as if the projection was real - flinching, trying to scratch my nose because I forgot I was wearing a huge mask, ducking, reaching out with an arm, peeking around a corner, glancing. I'm a terrible gamer, so "block" functions are something I rarely use...but pulling up my shield when someone is swinging a sword at me was natural - and seemingly worked.

Fruit Ninja VR is the sword/lightsaber game I've always wanted. Full angle and rotational movement, I could slice, slap aside with the flat of the blade, and even spear completely naturally.

Some games have the controller wands replaced by hands in the projection and I would occasionally drop the controllers because I was trying to use my "fingers".

Motion definitely makes motion sickness more likely. Smudges on the eyepieces are terrible, and getting just the right focus and calibration is finicky, especially vertical (some games have me stand at the same distance from the camera that other games require I sit). Teleportation movement broke immersion a lot, but constitutes an entire new genre of game as far as I could tell - I tried a demo of a shooter that had only teleportation movement, and the tactics it involved were totally new. Archery imitations fell very flat for me - motions a bit too imprecise to "nock" an arrow, and holding a wand in each hand is not close enough to a bow and sting. The lack of tactile feedback on the draw strength was surprisingly less important than I expected though.

The Star Trek Bridge Crew game and Battle(something involving tanks) gave me control panels to my immediate left and right that seemed perfectly natural in ways that a flatscreen display has not.

Honestly, we're a lot closer to a big interface change than I thought. I think the Input is now behind the Output. Get me Geek gloves so that I'm not holding a controller and can have my fingers in game and some more natural way to indicate walking/running/jumping and I'll call the package truly revolutionary even with the various caveats and finicky-ness of the VR display. (of course, I just listed some things I have no idea how to implement)

After a couple of hours, I was ready for the Singularity. Upload me and screw this physical limitations business. The VR wasn't real, but it was already close enough to make me very happy.

That said, while I have a blast each time I use it, I often elect to not go through the hassle of getting it all set up when I have some rare free time to play a game, particularly during daylight hours when the sun might wreak havoc with the camera's ability to find the helmet. I'm not surprised sales haven't been strong. I also won't be surprised if that changes dramatically when it's a pair of goggle-sized goggles, even without input changes, and with input improvements it's...surprisingly awesome.

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