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Comment by ReidZB | Hacker News Reader

> I realize that the proper solution is to terminate my account and never attempt to log back in.... but I've had my account since 2006 and despite the company's terrible practices, I'm really not interested in disconnecting for good at this time

Well, that's the real problem, isn't it? If users aren't punishing Facebook by leaving the platform in droves, then what incentive does Facebook have to stop its consistently user-hostile business practices? Obviously it does not care about complaints alone: so long as engagement metrics are up, the users' opinions can be damned.

The good news (for those of us that don't like Facebook) is that it seems like users are leaving it—or at least that's the picture I get from stories/comments submitted here on HN.

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I left Facebook. But mainly because I realised that it's a real poor way to keep in touch with anyone. Gives you the feeling that you are keeping in touch when in reality you are just sharing photos and quotes in a medium that's very noisy with adverts.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of events/organizations that organize almost exclusively through Facebook. Unfortunately, there effectively no other free platforms with a critical mass of sign ups big enough to be used in that way.

Of course there is Meetup which is certainly large enough for everything except the most niche event.

It isn't free to set up a meetup on Meetup.com though (which arguably helps keep the spam away).

Meetup is one of the spamiest products ever

Never seen spam in Meetup. I hooked up my personal calendar with Meetup and it added quite a bit of events into my calendar which was a bit spammy but it's only because I had told Meetup I was interested in all that stuff and it was easy to shut off and filter out.

WeWork bought Meetup recently so I don't know if any of that will change now.

Google Calendar/Hangouts/Maybe even plus?

Everyone has the gmail they probably created just to sign up for Facebook, since it seems this younger generation doesn't believe in email.

The younger generation seems to call Facebook by the name MomBook. Facebook is losing younger people by the millions.

I don't think that the problem is that there aren't suitable alternatives. More like, how would I force everyone who uses Facebook now to use something else?

Some of what I need to arrange can be done with calendar invites.

  Unfortunately, there are a lot of 
  events/organizations that organize almost exclusively
  through Facebook

And there are services that require a Facebook account in order to use them. But you know what?

If your business, event, whatever relies on the fact that I have a Facebook account then fuck you very much! I'm not interested.

It's all good if you are in a position to say no.

Eg. I've seen some housing communities use FB for their mailing lists.

I think the best option is to create dummy throwaway accounts if there's something on FB you really need access to.

Except that I want to partake. I'm not willing to drop out of my hobbies just because of this, this isn't the hill I'm going to die on.

If you never comment on each other's posts, then you aren't interacting. However, it is a great way to "keep appraised" of how people are doing.

There are a ton of people I've met throughout my life and around the world, but only a handful with whom I want to interact regularly. FB, annoying as it is, at least let's me know if they are doing ok.

It lets you know how they say they’re doing, and nothing else. If they have a bot updating their status, maybe not even that much.

If you message them you can know

If you’re relying on active messaging, why bother with FB?

For me, it's basically network effects - FB is already set up, I can find people quickly (I don't have alternative contact details for some people), I know the recipients active use FB so will see it, and it's easier to send long messages on PC rather than a mobile device.

I also tend to need to message people at odd hours, and a Facebook notification feels less intrusive/urgent than, e.g., an SMS.

Because everybody else is using FB for messaging? Network effect is a real thing.

Because that's the only reliable way I can message my friends. I'm not sure what else would work, people change/lose numbers all the time. Email is the worst. Not really much solutions out there if you want to keep in touch with your friends.

I personally mostly use messenger.com, rarely use the news feed anymore.

"apprised", not "appraised".

> FB, annoying as it is, at least let's me know if they are doing ok.

For some arbitrary definition of they. I've had a father of a childhood friend die and I didn't notice for two years. But that weird Australian friend of my former roommate that I helped through public transport from the airport last year? I get her drunk pictures. They didn't even like each other.

If you don’t like what you’re seeing, click the “hide stuff like this” option. I used to complain at end, then a friend forced me to use that feature and I rarely see something I don’t care about now (but still miss stuff I do care about as I don’t check FB that often).

Billions of dollars invested into machine learning and online tracking, and still I have to manually tell the thing about my interests.

Those billions are focused on the company interests, not yours.

> online tracking

Do the websites you visit define who you are (with zero context on why you visited it)? Do all the friends you have provide clear signal to what you want?

I don’t care how much $$$ is poured into ML, garbage in will always be garbage out. Something has to feed the model and if it’s all passive clicks with no strong signals from you, you get crappy results generally.

> click the “hide stuff like this” option

I've clicked that button for plenty of sponsored links and hit "unfollow" for people I no longer seek input from. But there are hundreds more where they came from.

This is perhaps viable, like transparently maintaining multiple sets of subscribers to different types of posts is an option. Although the mental overhead of maintaining these sets, and the risk of addressing the wrong crowd, are both too big for me.

My current method of keeping an address book in a spreadsheet, and an active, short list of people that I wish to see, has, however, beat social media when it comes to intimacy and not wasting time.

In my book this is more or less another proof that you should be vary of vendor lockin and that under no circumstances whatsoever use any such system for communication. It is bad enough to change phone number but you simply can't change facebook to something else and continue as usual.

I guess this leaves email, SMS and IRC as the main remaining options.

Somehow this needs to be communicated to the general public, but I don't have the slightest hope that this can be solved.

The future sucks.

> I guess this leaves email, SMS and IRC as the main remaining options.

But how are those not also vendor lock-ins?

You can text anyone on any network.

Anyone in your home country.

For me, and I don't think I am unusual in the US at least, texts to anywhere outside of the US, Canada, and Mexico aren't allowed without paying extra. Texts to many countries aren't allowed at any price.

Sucks to be at your Mobile Provider.

I can text literally any phone number, given I have enough money booked on the account. SMS is by nature not centralized, the data is exchanged between mobile providers.

If you were to start your own mobile provider, you could text anyone everywhere given you manage to get peering.

Email and IRC are completely vendor-agnostic protocols. I'm not as familiar with SMS, but it's much less centralized than Facebook - any user on any SMS provider may contact any other user, not only ones with the same provider.

And in many countries, you can port your number to other providers, much like with email (if you have your domain).

Email, SMS, and actual phone calls satisfy almost all of my communication needs.

The only problem I have is about once every few weeks someone wants me to Skype/Hangout/Facetime/whatever-the-other-video-chat-options-are. I really wish video chat was handled by telecoms in the same way phone calls are. Standard and ubiquitous.

For small video calls (especially just 2 people), a WebRTC system like https://appear.in is good enough and avoids lockin.

On appear.in I get a message telling me I don't have access after allowing access to camera when I use Firefox, so seems to be another site who is Chrome only

Yep. As as a European WhatsApp has become as essential as breathing. Just the thought of coordinating all my contacts to switch over to another app is scary.

Unless WhatsApp ever charges money. That would get people to move.

If you genuinely consider a phone app as essential as breathing you should reevaluate your situation before it goes away or causes you issues. If your life and communications ever become hampered due to WA there's no one to blame but yourself. It's a large point of failure for people that rely on others so heavily.

> Yep. As as a European WhatsApp has become as essential as breathing.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am an European, and I have never used WhatsApp.

I don't use WhatsApp myself but I was surprised to find that members of my extended family (mostly in their 50s) had started using it to stay in touch rather than Facebook.

Also, from what I have read, WhatsApp is very popular in UK political circles (MPs, SPADs etc.).

I don't use WhatsApp myself but I was surprised to find that members of my extended family (mostly in their 50s) had started using it to stay in touch rather than Facebook.

They're still using Facebook, just one of its other shapes.

I think when people refer to Facebook they mean the social networking site, not a product of Facebook Inc.

WhatsApp charged money before they were bought by Facebook

I've been thinking about making an easy-to-use RSS client, so non-technical people can use it and post the stuff that they would otherwise put on facebook (before it got invaded by videos and ads) or twitter.

Have you tried mastodon?. Imagine Mastodon, but with a bloggy/(2008's facebook) vibe instead of a twitter clone.

There would be no ads, because it's decentralized, just like mastodon. The feed would be chronological, and the interface would desincentivize spamming (links wouldn't have thumbnails or previews).

The idea is to make a clean and simple blog interface with a profile section added, where you could put some contact information and a profile pic.

In fact I made a little preview of what I would like it to look like. What do you guys think? https://i.imgur.com/DSD1wE0.png

Also in that vision: * Manton Reece's Microblog, also build on feeds * Indieweb. No feeds, just webpages with Microformats.

"...Well, that's the real problem, isn't it? If users aren't punishing Facebook by leaving the platform in droves, then what incentive does Facebook have to stop its consistently user-hostile business practices?..."

And the reason they're not leaving and don't want to leave? Where else are you going to connect up with old friends and remote family members?

I said it when Facebook started growing like gangbusters. Facebook is the frickin' devil. It uses your friends and family against you. For a free service, it sure costs like hell.

>And the reason they're not leaving and don't want to leave? Where else are you going to connect up with old friends and remote family members?

Pick up the phone. There's FaceTime, Skype, text messages, actual phone calls, going to visit, sending letters, sending emails.

Or, if you can't be bothered to do any of that maybe you should not even bother trying to connect?

> Where else are you going to connect up with old friends and remote family members?

Wait, are you really suggesting that Facebook is the only way to keep in touch with old friends and remote family?

You can connect with them over email, SMS, or even not at all. Or you can use Facebook and experience the downsides that everyone is mentioning. This is a timeless story where a company provides a service, people get used to it, then complain when the company changes the service against their liking. You are and have always been free to communicate as if FB never existed. They owe you and your family nothing. But in many cases people prefer to pay the costs of using the service. They're not the devil just because you fail at communication without them.

people could start writing letters again, that would be interesting

Maybe you could find a way for people to even send mail electronically. Over the internet. Almost a sort of an e-mail type of thing, if one were to be so bold as to coin a new word for it. Us smart internet engineers could even probably come up with at least 5 well-defined protocols that no one actually adheres to. This could be fun!!!

we could call it pen-mail ... part of the protocol could be that only letters written with a quill pen at a desk in a room with a fireplace would be able to be digitized and transmitted through pen-mail

> If users aren't punishing Facebook by leaving the platform in droves, then what incentive does Facebook have to stop its consistently user-hostile business practices

A huge GDPR face slap could definitely help. I'm really curious to see how this plays out.

While GDPR should be a privacy win for users, it is a giant pain for us as a small business. 1% of our customers are in the EU and the administrative overhead (as portrayed by our legal counsel) is unbearable at our price point. We decided to pull out of the EU, along with the other players in our niche.

May I ask what your niche is?

> The good news (for those of us that don't like Facebook) is that it seems like users are leaving it—or at least that's the picture I get from stories/comments submitted here on HN.

This is good news in the long term, but in the short- and medium-terms it means Facebook is going to get desperate and start deploying more and more dark patterns like the one the GP is talking about. Considering their reach, I shudder to think of what a desperate Facebook will look like for the Internet.

the fewer that people use the network (FB) the less valuable it will be

I think that’s actually the case. In the many years I used facebook I don’t think I received a single email from them (only from that shitty trip advisor fb app that was spamming me like there was no tomorrow). Like many others here I got annoyed by my facebook feed and simply deleted the facebook app from my smartphone which means I now only connect once a week or less. Almost immediatly I started receiving a lot of facebook spam on my email. Clearly they have an algorithm “shit this user is leaving, let’s try to get him back” (algorithm which effect was only to aggravate my annoyance level). They must be worried about that.

HN crowd is a quite special case.

Elsewhere in the world, FB is assumed as to be the standard. My romantic life has been very disappointing, so some time ago I tried creating a Tinder account (it is the only dating [yes you read it right, dating, not hookup] app that has entered the popular consciousness in this country and thus has a significant amount of female users). Last time I checked, they still required a FB account.

I think you can now sign up on Tinder with a phone number

The amount of people that complain about a service, product, or company, yet continue to be customers, astounds me. And then they wonder how they get away with their practices.

Post hate-comments on every Sponsored Post you see. I'm hoping eventually they will implement an algorithm to blacklist people like me from ever seeing ads.

Not really. Every user who experiences is going to accrue anger, resentment, distrust for the platform, and they'll treat it accordingly, and when an alternative arises, switch.

IMO Facebook should totally lay off security confirmations, account bans, and all that stuff because it just antagonizes people, unless the user actually does something significantly harmful to other users experience, ie largescale spamming (not just regular sharing), actual fake news propaganda (not just sharing a political story), actually abusing an account (not just using untrue details to protect their own privacy but otherwise using Facebook in an OK way).

Otherwise, yeah, I think everyone's going to jump ship at first opportunity, because they don't get treated that well as users.

They definitely are. And for users like me they certainly aren't getting their money's worth... I use FB purity, ublock origin, and have spent the better part of the last year using the 'on this day' feature to scrub historical information from the platform.

As a tool Facebook still has valid use cases for me. The benefits of keeping it edge out any negatives. So for now I will stay. Unless any egregious election meddling information comes out, in which I'll seriously reevaluate that decision

> to scrub historical information from the platform.

You know they never actually delete user data, right? They don't delete your data if you actually delete your account, much less if you just delete a post. They just stop displaying it then.

This is something I wonder about. I'm certain they never delete anything, because in aggregate all that data is surely very valuable and will be for years to come. However, I hope that by marking it for deletion, it becomes more likely that it gets stored on increasingly distant/cold media, increasing the likelihood that over the years it gets overwritten or corrupted or some drives fail. If times get difficult, maybe they'll mark my data as low priority, and let it get overwritten to save some money. Can anyone shed some light on this - is this just wishful thinking? Is storage too cheap?

Another thing I wonder about: perhaps if some companies want your facebook data, they might pay a rate and see all current information on your facebook. By deleting your data, you've denied these lower-tier companies from accessing it. I suspect that with enough money, they could buy access to deleted posts too. But such companies are probably fewer in number.

> is this just wishful thinking? Is storage too cheap?

Yes

In essence it’s cheaper to store than delete.

They're very serious about data preservation.

https://code.facebook.com/posts/1433093613662262/-under-the-...

is_deleted: true

Okay we're done here, folks!

This is why I'm never giving them another piece of data for as long as I live. I haven't logged in for years and I blackhole Facebook emails to a folder I scan periodically just in case someone from years ago needs to get in touch with me.

Interestingly enough, these emails occasionally get past my inbox filter, and I have to update my regex. I imagine this kind of circumvention is someone's full time job, which just repels me further from the platform.

I don't want to delete my account either, because I use fb to stay in contact with friends spread around the globe. (Granted: Very rarely to post something in local groups also.)

But my bookmark points to facebook.com/messages and I practically never look on my feed. I guess (/hope) I'm about as valuable as a deleted account to facebook. Please feel free to correct me if you have some insights into this!

Facebook reports of active users to their shareholders every month. You're an active user, you're valuable. The information you share via messenger, is equally valuable.

Use messenger.com instead of facebook.com/messages to get rid of the distracting notifications.

I just think you need to be cognizant of how Facebook is tracking you across websites as well. It's not just the information you have associated with your account, when you are logged into Facebook, you are tracked wherever you go. Now, there are certainly ways to limit this using plugins, etc.

Yikes- wow, even from my computer browser- not even from my cell phone? If I have facebook password autosaved, log in, check facebook, and close the window without logging out, is it still tracking me? Damn. I did NOT realize this.

Look at any other website - is there a FB Like button saying "25 of your friends liked this"? Congratulations, FB now knows you visit that site.

I also recommend installing EFF's Privacy Badger extension. It shows you everything that is tracking you across the interwebs.

I do the same.only use it to message some people. I try to pull them into hangouts or signal because at least they are more or less jist a chat app so dont provide me useless notifications.

> then what incentive does Facebook have to stop its consistently user-hostile business practices

Once upon a time in the USA, and in some nations today, there was/is regulation in the public interest. Why not try it in the USA?

You aren't required to use Facebook. You can, in less than one second, stop using it.

It isn't electricity, roads, water. It's freakin' Facebook.

The point wasn’t that they have a monopoly, it was that they have unfair business practices.

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