Where Dutch directness comes from | Hacker News Reader

Where Dutch directness comes from

bbc.com

24 pointsstarpilot16 comments

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16280485

> We chose our seats and waited, but the waiter was nowhere to be seen. When he finally materialised, seemingly out of nowhere, he didn’t ask ‘What would you like to order’, or ‘What can I get you?’. He said ‘What do you want?’. Maybe it was the fact that he’d said it in English, or maybe he was just having a bad day, but I was shocked nonetheless.

It wasn't rudeness, it was just translated from Dutch to English, i.e. how you would say it in Dutch but with English words. Something like; "Wat wil je?"

Just because the Dutch speak English well, doesn't mean they communicate well in English.

When I moved from the Netherlands to Australia 12 years ago I could speak English very well. However, there is a big difference in speaking a language and expressing yourself in it.

Also "What do you want" is not really a great example of directness. That's either passive-aggressive, leaving the customer guess if they have done something wrong, or it is, as you suggested, just a lost in translation case.

"What can I get you" is a proper direct, clean way to indicate you are ready to take order. Compare that to London in hype-ish restaurant where you get "Hi, how are you doing today, my name is X" which you need to understand is your cue to engage in a business transaction instead of chitchat.

I agree with you. It's just that "What can I get you" is a the proper "cultural" way to say it in English. In Dutch you say it differently, so a lot of Dutch (not being exposed to the proper cultural English way of saying things) just speak Dutch with English words. It's this that makes it sound harsh.

But isn't it also direct in Dutch?

To put it in context: is there a way to say it even more directly in Dutch? Or, is it more that Dutch lacks different levels of directness?

Perhaps similiarly to how English lacks the extensive polite forms of Japanese.

I think in Dutch it would be more the "tone", how it is asked, rather than the actual words. Imagining myself being a rude Dutch waiter, the rudest I could ask it in Dutch would probably by just saying "Ja?" (as in, Yes) in a grumpy tone. But if I say the same thing in a friendly way, it would probably be just fine for most occasions.

I know people here are in love with this concept, considering this is the second or third time this rather tabloid(ish) and off-topic article has made it to the front page.

So, some words of warning to those considering the Netherlands a paradise for their first amendment rights that are being trampled in the US:

"Being direct" does indeed allow to cut through the rhetorical gymnastics Brits and Americans have to go through to offer criticism. You can say "This result is wrong" or "I can never show this draft to the client", instead of "There is potential in your writing" or "You are extremely creative in your use of mathematical notation".

It does not mean you can denigrate others just because you don't like their type. That Google guy would have been fired in the Netherlands just as fast as he did in the US.

Which Google guy?

I am guessing James Damore.

> That Google guy would have been fired in the Netherlands just as fast as he did in the US.

He wouldn't be fired in any country with an actual labor law.

"You are extremely creative in your use of mathematical notation"

In the US, this amounts to calling someone a liar and fraud. "Creative accounting" is also known as cooking the books. I have difficulty imagining it being taken as a delicate way to say something. I think it would be viewed as an ugly thing to say.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_accounting

Did you even read his memo? Because I did, and while I don't agree with all of his conclusions, I didn't see anything there that constituted denigration.

OMG not this guy again! Many people don't agree with the assessment that he was being denigrating so unless you are looking for a debate on that topic, you might want to use another comparison.

I think that's improbable. You have to keep in mind that the US zeitgeist and even the Scandinavian zeitgeist are radically different, and diverging rapidly. For instance there was a 7 part television series published on regular television in Norway called Hjernevask, which translates to Brainwash. [1] (English subs are provided). It was primarily about the absurdities within gender studies and associated social 'sciences.'

If that was published in America, you'd have 'progressive' lynch mobs lining up with torches and pitchforks. Seriously, watch that video and imagine the reaction if that series aired on e.g. NBC in the US. In Scandinavia it instead simply led to an increased discussion of the issues mentioned. One of the major institutes studied, the Nordic Gender Institute', was also defunded shortly after the series ran. The government maintains that it was simply a coincidence. [2]

Speaking critically of systems which are ostensibly about progressive values, and "denigrating others just because you don't like their type" are not the same thing.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E577jhf25t4

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Gender_Institute#Impact...

Eh, this seems to me to be in the vein of other articles that tend to fetishize cultures other than ours. As a New Yorker, I've heard constantly about how we're all aggressive, rude, direct, confrontational, etc. While, like most stereotypes, there might be a sliver of truth, my experience has been quite different. People will keep to themselves, avoid confrontation (even moving to a different subway car if they're bothered by something); it's more that less is said, such as callously shoving past someone on a crowded sidewalk, or being passive-aggressive. I know articles like these appeal to the HN crowd since they're techies who are deficient in social skills, and crusade against "PC culture" and other niceties. But in real life, being overly direct will quickly get you labeled as unpleasant. Small talk and the like actually do have a purpose.

I have a kind of philosophical dictionary called Talking Philosophy (written by an Australian) which says that when a philosopher at Oxford disagrees with another they say "Quite. But at the same time..", while in Sydney they say "Bullshit!"

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