People who are less willing to apologize also tend to be less self-compassionate | Hacker News Reader

People who are less willing to apologize also tend to be less self-compassionate

tonic.vice.com

129 pointsfarnsworthy128 comments

Kinda related: it's occurred to that I've only ever witnessed anyone in my life genuinely apologize for something a handful of times. Weird to think about. People really seem to struggle with this.

I agree with the anecdote. As a corollary anecdote, the older I get the more I see people taking advantage of other people for their own personal gain.

It seems to vary a lot from one culture to another. In Japan making excuses or not apologizing is seen as childish.

Yeah, I've wondered about how much this varies. I mostly have my own experience from living in the US. I've spent some time in Japan and I can imagine that what you say is true.

Honestly, it's a really nice feeling to have the opportunity to apologize for something you know you did wrong. It can really strengthen a relationship with someone.

Apologies in Japan are also usually empty and meaningless.

It's more of a custom than anything else.

Actually I've wondered about this. I've noticed that, in Japan, when something bad happens, it often seems that someone is expected to appear in public and apologize often while shedding a tear or two. I've seen that happen a few different times and in the same way each time. So yeah, I've thought it might just be a custom.

It's actually a running joke among foreigners living there.

Someone will apologize, bow deeply, cry (no gender difference), sometimes perform some irrelevant humiliating act (there was a girl that shaved her head) and all is good.

No actual behaviour changes, nothing is really addressed, mitigated or prevented.

Are there really no behavior changes? What happens if you shave your head, and then have to apologize again before it grows back? Seems like there are consequences that become incentives.

Sure, someone can fake sincerity, but doing the rituals forces the apologizer to think about what they've done, which, in a decent human being, leads to self-reflection and attempt to improve. This is of course gameable by sociopaths, but works decently well for anyone trying to be decent.

I teach empathy/self-empathy in the context of nonviolence and apology has a lot to do with both.

One of the issues of apology is that it is too often used for and associated with humiliation or submission. It is also associated with status/power loss.

Once you learn how to apologize without any of these and without triggering the self-preservation alarms, it becomes very easy to apologize honestly, with compassion and understanding.

Growth happens through attempting and failing and sometimes succeeding. Many of these failures involve the feelings of others.

A sincere apology is invaluable tool In remaining on the same side and building sustainable relationships over longe periods of time.

How do you apologize like that?

It depends on the culture. Also worth nothing: some cultures make this effectively impossible.

As a guess; communication happens in a moment, but also over a time.

For example, I might have an apple and you might say to me 'give me your apple'. For me to distinguish between that being a 'request' or a 'demand', I need to observe what you do if I say no. If you try and take my apple by force, it was a demand. If you shrug and move on, or offer something in negotiation, it was a request. This is orthogonal to the fact it wasn't polite - it can be an impolite request. A lot of people can't distinguish a polite demand not backed by physical violence from a request, and that causes problems.

Similarly, for me the difference between an apology and say a status play is whether someone changes their behaviors meaningfully after they apologise. If behaviors do not change, it was just a status thing or some other form of insincere apology.

Another way is to make the apology conditional, which is really a form of polite demand (ie, demanding the conditional aspect of the apology with the threat of doing whatever the apology was for). This is subtle and can be quite manipulative. People sometimes recognise there is a problem but can't quite identify it.

> Another way is to make the apology conditional, which is really a form of polite demand (ie, demanding the conditional aspect of the apology with the threat of doing whatever the apology was for). This is subtle and can be quite manipulative. People sometimes recognise there is a problem but can't quite identify it.

I’m having trouble grokking this: do you have an example?

"I'll apologise for eating your apple when you apologise for being late and making me wait."

That is a basic example. This isn't going to be a genuine apology, even if the apple-eater says sorry it is in context of something more akin to a negotiation.

There is an implicit "if you cause me trouble, I am morally free to eat your apple in retaliation". There is no element of regret or mistake in this 'apology', which robs it of genuine impact.

Incidentally, that sort of negotiation in this example is a bad idea because it immediately entangles actions (eg, being late), guilt (something has happened that demands an apology, ie, hurt must be immediately acknowledged) and a level of threat (future actions may still be met with retaliation because it was justified this time).

If you reflect on that little 'apology' you can have quite a fun armchair psychology experience picking apart all the ways it conflates emotion, intent and action in ways that are unlikely to be helpful. Using the same approach on a subject more important than food can cause real damage. Many people would probably struggle to pick what was going wrong though, because on the surface it might look like an apology.

First, forgive yourself. You examine the situation and see how the actions you took met some of your needs (which is why you took them) but not others (which is why you need to forgive).

You’re basically coming clean with yourself first so that you can be solid with the rest of the world.

The way you forgive is to understand how these actions served and how they did not and recognize that at the moment of taking them you weren’t present to the second part, or deprioritized it etc.

And you spend a minute feel the emotion associated with that lack of awareness or choice. That’s the alchemy which changes your state and the state of the world. It’s simple but I usually need to teach it face to face.

Then, after you’re clean with yourself, you can communicate with the person who you want to apologize to.

- what happened, in factual, concrete language (“in the Wednesday meeting I said I’d be surprised if your code didn’t bomb, in front of the team.”)

- what you feel in the moment of the apology. Needs to match what you actually feel (not think) or its a lie. (“I am feeling some sadness and shame.”)

- what values/universal needs did the actions not accomplish, and possibly, hoped to accomplish. You figured these in the self forgiveness part. (“I realize it’s important for me to be respectful to my peers. And inclusive. The way I want to be respected and included. These words were not either. I tried to make a joke, but forgot about the rest. I apologize, wish I hadn’t done that.” And, if your introspection had this element, “I must admit I was annoyed by the issues in your last two commits because I had to stay after hours to do fixes. My remark communicated some of that but was not clear nor constructive nor respectful.”)

Then, you can

- check if they understand (this may be too formal for casual environments but can vary from “can you tell me what you heard me say?” to “how is it for you to hear this?”)

- check if you need to make amends. (“Would you like me to have a conversation with Bob and make it clear that despite two commits with issues, I do believe that you produce good quality — because that’s what I really think — and that I’d do a code review with you?”)

The big picture is: reconnect to yourself, come clean with yourself, connect + come clean with the other. Be and make it clear that you’re in the same side.

When you are clean with yourself and have grieved (strong word but actionable even in small situations. It takes one honest sigh. ) the repercussions of the actions, you are able to own up to them because you know why you took them. Very hard to manipulate / shame / guilt.

It is based on NVC.

Edit: fixed typos.

Good advice, but this part

>- check if they understand (this may be too formal for casual environments but can vary from “can you tell me what you heard me say?” to “how is it for you to hear this?”)

comes off as incredibly condescending. It's hard to do that check without being condescending. You are the one (correctly) lowering your status to apologize. Putting the onus on them to signal acceptance on the spot is out of place.

The intention of this part is to ensure that the communication goes through. You do that with knowledge of the situation and the person across you.

Could be a few words, or could be a look in the eye and a nod.

I usually say something along the lines of “I’d appreciate if you could let me know if that cleared things for you.”

If it doesn’t feel right, don’t do it. In my experience it’s good to let the other person let me know how they are in the context of the situation and be willing to hear them out.

Sometimes I say something like "I'm not sure if I made myself clear [which is true], could you tell me what you think I said?" That is a lot better than saying something that implies that you are afraid they didn't understand because you think they are a poor listener.

Exactly. The sentiment is: this/us is important to me, I want to make sure I communicated properly, if you’re willing, please help me ensure that.

Sometimes I will say something like, "I'm not sure if I made myself clear [which is true], could you tell me what you thought I said?"

This is better than saying something that implies you are afraid they didn't understand because you think they are a poor listener.

Explain why it happened (with sorry early in the explanation.) Explain how your decision making has now changed or will change so it doesn't happen again.

Don't get the scope wrong - if you are only going to make such a minor change that lots of almost-identical incidents will still happen in future, don't bother. Conversely, if you make quite exaggerated claims about the change you will make, also maybe don't bother.

If in contrast to a real apology that promises change, your "apology" is really a backhanded promise that it'll all happen again and probably soon; don't expect that to be gracefully accepted.

Wow, that's amazing to me. Maybe you are very young. But I wonder what kind of people are in your life. Although it depends what you mean 'genuinely'; maybe you rule out most apologies with that, e.g. "Sorry" for bumping into someone, inadvertently not giving them what they wanted, and other similar everyday apologies. (I do live with someone who hasn't learnt to apologize, in the way you describe. It often seems incomprehensibly inconsiderate.)

I'm not super young. And, yes, I'm discounting situations like bumping into a person in the street. I think a lot of people really struggle with admitting openly that they did something wrong. In the US, unfortunately, I think it's often seen as a sign of indecisiveness or lack of fortitude. Of course, this isn't true in every case. But I think it's probably more true than in certain other countries.

Everyday apologies aren't necessarily non-genuine, they are simply minor.

It might be a backlash against over-parenting culture. From a young age, I was taught to apologize for everything. It wasn't until later in life that someone pointed out this was detrimental, so I stopped.

I attribute that to strong judgmental attitudes towards people for making mistakes, not fitting in, etc. It creates a nasty feedback loop that has taken society a lot of time to overcome and we're not all the way through.

People struggle with things that actually matter, or put their character in the spotlight. I've found most people will do everything they can to avoid conflict, which is bad because it means problems don't get resolved. Worse yet, some people such as myself won't correct behavior unless they get explicit feedback. I really effing hate how most people's way of dealing with conflict is through covert aggression; it's insulting because it suggests I'm not capable of arguing like a grown adult, and I'm left to interpret an issue that might just be in my head. I assume people do this for similar reasons to why they won't explicitly apologise for wrongdoings.

A lot of things really don't warrant an actual apology (bumping into someone, forgetting something) - there isn't a lot you could have done to prevent it. Or you are forced to apologized, even though you weren't actually regretful. Or we are forced to apologize for things we aren't actually sorry for: words that were said instead of apologizing for your contribution to the situation that led up to the words or for the situation the words caused.

If polite society doesn't allow folks to express how we actually feel and expects a lot of empty apologies for politeness sake, the genuine apologies are going to be much more rare. It isn't so much a struggle with apologies as a struggle with the expectations of others and the society we live in.

To be fair, this is mostly about American culture as I'm more familiar with it. They don't seem as necessary here in Norway for such little offenses (bumping into someone on the bus is a wordless thing, for example).

On the other hand, part of politeness is helping others feel better even if you go a bit out of the way to achieve it. American society would not be harmed by more of this.

I wasn't talking about little offenses like bumping into someone. I was talking about things like making insensitive remarks or unfairly directing negative feelings or anger at someone who doesn't deserve it or wasn't the cause of the original stress factor that led to the anger. Or maybe even worse things than that. Generally, things about which a person might come to feel some kind of deeper remorse.

I do think it's often possible to identify the first person who lost their cool or decided to project their own internal conflict onto someone else. This can sometimes turn out to be oneself.

Hmm? If I bump into someone because I wasn't watching where I was going, or I misjudged a gap, there is a lot I could have done to prevent.

One of the first phrases I try to learn when visiting a foreign country is how to apologize for bumping somone, or ask someone to move aside. "Excuse me" in English, "entschuldigen" in German, "jièguāng" in Mandarin. It's so much less awkward being when you can communicate with words. Is there a phrase you would use for this in Norwegian, or would you just clear your throat and tap your foot?

Most of the time, you'd just make eye contact if that. granted, i'm talking about small bumps and things that Americans apologize for daily, but are a normal part of life. Things change a little if you actually get someone to lose balance or fall down. "unnskyld meg" - a form of "excuse me" - same thing someone says if they want me to move. More importantly, make sure the other person is OK. Help them pick up stuff if dropped. Mostly, it just more seems like that sort of thing isn't as big of a deal here because it is part of life, especially on crowded buses.

Don't get me wrong, I find society really nice on the whole. If I fall down on the ice, folks make sure to ask if I'm OK. People help children (and children stop random folks to talk... they are on public buses at school age by themselves). Most people have been really patient with the language barrier - more so than I saw in the US - and people are happy I try instead of being upset that I have an accent. And granted, I was taught some of this from my Norwegian spouse and through language/civics classes required for my immigration.

I honestly hear apologies and the like more from other immigrants, and Americans seem overly polite and fake happy/apologetic in comparison.

It's also crucial to consider the motivations of the person you're apologizing to. If that person is interested in moving forward and (re)building the relationship, do it. But if the "offended" party is still resentful, they may use your apology as an "admission of guilt" and try to twist your words against you.

Moral: don't apologize to a truly toxic person - instead remove them from your life immediately.

What do you mean by “toxic”?

By "toxic" I mean someone who essentially sees social situations as a way to play out their inner sadistic tendencies - for example by passive-aggressively seeking conflicts so they can play the victim, or constantly looking for "enemies" and trying to ruin their reputations. A person who has unresolved inner conflict or trauma which they try to rectify (or distract themselves from) by projecting issues onto others.

This is rather lite-pop psych, but covers the basics:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-flux/201608/8-things...

Manipulative, judgemental, fail to be accountable / responsible, don't apologise, are inconsistent, require you to prove yourself, require you to defend yourself, are not caring / supportive / interested in what's important to you.

Not mentioned: there's often trauma, abuse, fear, or pain underlying the behaviour. Not that this makes it any easier to deal with.

Apologies are not about who the other person is. Apologize for where you went wrong.

They're also not a "get out of jail free" card. If you did something rather hurtful, a person might still resent you for what you did. That doesn't mean they're "toxic" or "twisting your words" - it means they have been deeply hurt by you, in a way that only time can truly heal.

I agree that not every person who can't or won't accept your apology is toxic. My advice is: when a person you don't know well claims to have been offended by you, look for signs that the person just wants a fight. If that's the case, try to remove yourself before any more damage happens.

It's natural to want to apologize if you think you've hurt someone's feelings. Just be aware that some people are addicted to creating drama, and that may have nothing to do with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

Yeah this is just a bizarre and selfish way of treating others. If you wronged someone, apologize. It has nothing to do with whether they will accept it, and certainly not with how well you know them.

Say you were texting and killed a kid crossing the street. You don't know his family and the mother will not accept your apology. Perhaps she even goes on TV crying about the person who killed her baby.

There are quite many cowardly individuals in America who would use legal reasons as an excuse not to apologize in a situation like that, and probably even a handful who would double down on this pathology and tell themselves the woman is "looking for drama". This is sad.

Who benefits when you try to force an unwanted apology on someone who doesn't want to be contacted by you? Consider whether you're just trying to assuage your own guilty conscience at the further expense of the victim.

I didn't mean to suggest the person would not want contact.

An apology doesn't itself assuage a guilty conscience, it is just an acknowledgement of the debt created by the wrong. A fake apology may be worse than saying nothing, but the prevalence of fake apologies is no excuse not to do the right thing.

It's a data point that many crime victims ask not to be contacted by the perpetrator. Again I'm asking you whose benefit this apology is for. If it's for your own benefit, maybe it's not warranted.

I know what you mean but I also agree with the OP to a certain extent. Sometimes, you've got a person who simply isn't going to accept your apology and no good will come of it. You may feel that it doesn't serve either party that one person is given an opportunity to lash out at the other. I dunno. It's subtle and depends on the situation.

You have this whole apologizing thing the wrong way around. You don't automatically apologize because someone feels offended, but only if you truly did something that you feel warrants an apology - and for that evaluation, you shouldn't take into account the possible future, but the past.

You seem like a weirdo.

You can't change the past, but you can make the future a better place, so I'll make the decision of whether to apologize based on the future.

Honest apologies are good but I see a lot of people that apologize all the time but don't change their behavior. They probably think it's OK as long as they apologize.

This is standard behavior for abusive people. It is so standard that it makes you wonder if it is Chapter One of some guidebook on How to be an Abusive Asshole.

It is another reason I am not fond of apologies. If all you do is apologize and you don't change and don't try to make things right, you can get the fuck out of my life.

While that is annoying, I think we should clarify that it is not abuse. I hesitate to even consider it manipulation. Maybe I am missing something. Could you give an example?

It sounds dishonorable at most, but not offensive. To be honest, my first thought is that an insinuation of this being abuse is more qualified manipulation than the behavior you’re critiquing.

You can always just let the person out of your life. It sounds likely they are merely not meeting your standards because humans are irrational, weird, biological and well, human.

You seem to be misreading my point.

People who are abusive very often apologize for it. For example, men who beat their wives routinely apologize afterwards and even swear they will stop. But they don't. They escalate. The beatings get worse.

Habitual empty apologies don't constitute abuse per se. There are people with, for example, low self esteem who just apologize for everything all the time. This is annoying, but not abusive.

But abusive people who actually do terrible things also apologize a lot. However, they don't change and they don't make amends.

These are not people I want in my life.

I have seen that with an alcoholic I rented an office with. He would mess up, apologize profusely and soon mess up again big time. He definitely was a master at convincing apologies and I think he know it and used it. I think that qualifies as abusive. I have heard the same about people who beat their spouse.

To be fair, he might have been actually sorry, but not actually able to get over his addiction to alcohol enough to break the cycle. I'd say it wasn't an excuse if medical & science based treatment was available within the addicted's price range, along with social help for both the addict and their family as needed.

It does qualify as abusive to a point, but it really depends on the person and how they react to the addiction.

Abusive spouses do have similar behavior, and some addicts are also abusive. These folks should be prosecuted, and given help while in jail so they aren't as likely to commit the same crimes (psychological help for anger management, halfway houses to adjust, medical/science based addiction services that continue after release).

My dad drank very heavily for many years. My mother never cared because, in her words, "There was always enough money and he was never a mean drunk."

I have seen studies that have concluded that a lot of behavior that gets blamed on drugs and alcohol is behavior they were looking for an excuse to engage in. They drank to facilitate the socially unacceptable behavior. So the cause and effect relationship is the opposite of what gets claimed.

In other words, they didn't do a terrible thing because they were drunk. They got drunk so they could do the terrible thing. (Example: pedophilia)

I have loads of sympathy for an addict's inability to stop using. I am convinced that most addiction is literally self medicating for often unidentified issues.

But I have damn little sympathy for an addict using their addiction as an excuse to crap on me. I don't buy it. I don't think having an addiction inherently leads to uncontrollable bad behavior that they just can't help (aside from rampant foot in mouth disease, which I also sometimes suffer due to my medical condition). I think that's a lie that they keep telling because it works.

I believe drugs should be decriminalized. I think the need to hide it fuels a lot of bad behavior that isn't due to the drug per se but is due, instead, to bs social factors. I believe you should be able to imbibe whatever you want. It is your body. I believe people need very supportive environments when coming off drugs because withdrawal is a bitch and people really do crazy stuff at that time. BTDT having never been an addict thanks to a serious medical condition.

But I do not believe in simply excusing repeated bad behavior because someone drinks or takes some other drug. We don't say people with medical conditions who are permanently on medication for it are excused from standards of behavior. So I see zero reason to say that about addiction.

I don't think poster is saying that all people who apologize often are abusers, but that many abusers fit this pattern of alternating bad behavior with apologies/compensation. It rings very true if you have seen firsthand.

I keep getting redirected to https://www.vice.com/en_au whenever I click on this link.

Looking on the en/AU variation of the site, I can't seem to find the article.

Does Vice seem to think Australians shouldn't have access to this article? Or is geofencing dumb, outdated and broken? I'm leaning towards the latter.

Very annoying.

I found using google cache I could read the article.

Anybody out there that could provide a PDF perhaps?

Try the Internet Archive or Archive.is as alternatives.

Maybe leave feedback for Vice.

The AU version is here:

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/wj48nz/people-who-never-a...

Apologies are not always needed. When you really mess up its usually pretty obvious and saying youre sorry doesnt do all that much. "Sorry I introduced a bug that causes the system to crash once a week" doesn't really help anyone, of course you're going to be sorry. I heard this from someone and it stuck with me: "Don't apologize, fix it."

Edit: I made a mistake while writing this, I am trying to say be objective about your mistakes but many people took that to mean don't admit your mistakes. I should have been more specific with my terminology.

Acknowledging that you know you caused the problem has important social function: it provides sympathy to others who may be annoyed at you ("they are annoyed at themselves too, so I shouldn't be so hard on them") and signals that you are aware of your actions so are less likely to screw up in future.

But yes, you should clean up your messes.

Acknowledgement of your shortcomings is not the same as an apology.

In my experience apologies are not making things better, but saying yeah that’s my fault and moving forward does.

They’re the same as far as I’m concerned. Whether you say “I’m sorry” or “oops. my bad” doesn’t matter as long as you acknowledge that you did something that may have fucked up someone’s morning/day/weekend.

Okay then it's just semantics. I admit mistakes but I try to be objective about it. If that's considered an apology then I do apologize.

An apology says “yes, I know I inconvenienced you/somebody other than myself”

> yeah that’s my fault and moving forward

This sounds like an apology to me (just a rather casual one, befitting a minor screwup).

If you e.g. said you’d be at a routine 9:00 work meeting and you didn’t get there until 9:20 because your sick dog vomited on the rug you can make a quick and casual apology like that. If you e.g. cheated on your spouse while you were on a business trip, you shouldn’t leave it at “yeah that’s my fault let’s move forward.”

Apologizing helps indicate the person will make an effort to avoid their mistake in the future. Focusing on someone in the present without acknowledging they are a person with intentions and feelings reeks of lacking empathy.

Disagree....

I play soccer 3 times a week, and the number one conflict in the field (up to fist fights) is when a guy plays rough, does a couple of bad tackles, and doesn't apology after them.

Non-apology on a bad mistake = people perceive it as intentional, and rightfully they get angry. Number one way to diffuse situations is to apologize and move on.

On the other hand, people do mistakes in passing, shooting, etc... it is part of the game. A quick acknowledgment of the mistake to your teammates is useful (usually just by a raising of your hand/body gesture), but over-apologizing for normal mistakes is not that useful.

Same in engineering. If you caused a bug/crashed something: Just say "Sorry guys, I am on it/fixing it", is more than enough. No need to send long winded apology emails, but not even acknowledging it makes you look like a sneaky, "self protecting ego at any cost" type of guy/girl, and people lose trust on you.

That works when your mistake is on a machine and you fix it with code. When you make a mistake with people, apologizing is part of fixing it.

Apologies have nothing to do with bugs.

This. Bugs are a normal part of working on complex systems to tight deadlines. Would a sales person say sorry if a deal fell through? A cold caller if they didn't get an appointment?

I know what you mean about words not really changing the physical world around us. Still, sometimes I feel like how the other person’s attitude towards their misstep means more to me. Or, otherwise I feel like I’m being “bought” with some action. Does anyone else find this?

I agree but feel that "fixing it" is itself a form of apology especially when acknowledging the problem. I don't feel an actual "I'm sorry ..." type of apology is needed unless you really had an impact on someone's feelings, emotions, or in the work scenario you knew it caused them unexpected grief (work on their day off, etc). Otherwise, people messing up is just part of the job and they should expect that they will occasionally have to deal with some mess ups.

Alternatively, I might just be low on the self-compassion spectrum.

While I agree that fixing problems is more important than letting someone know you share a concern for their problem...

Can't you see that someone who won't even offer a simple verbal agreement that there IS a problem, is probably less likely to be the fixer of a problem than someone who is?

A good apology has 3 parts:

1. State what you did.

2. State that you regret it. (It wasn't your intention to harm.)

3. State what you'll do mitigate the damage and prevent the problem from repeating.

(Then, after the apology, comes the fix: Do what you said in Step 3.)

Step 1 gets mutual awareness of the relevant facts. Step 2 stakes a claim that you aren't an enemy, and Step 3 (plus the follow-up) backs he claim with a meaningful action.

The goal of the apology is to rebuild trust that you are an ally and you are reliably, not an enemy or a liability.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/liking-the-child-you-lo...

Off topic question. A few years ago I started a heated, short-lived debate on an online forum. Soon after, however, I realized my arguments were flawed. Is it creepy to send an apology to a few users after such a long time? I don't know them in real life, but I regret my rushed judgment to this day. I would like my online behaviour to be consistent with my real-life behaviour regardless of circumstances.

Creepy? No.

Just don't grave dig if you decide to apologize.

I wouldn't find it creepy at all, though obviously depends on the exact context. I admire people who change their minds and who follow up to tie off loose threads. Others might feel differently, but I'd encourage you to reach out if you're considering it. Generally I think reaching out to others is worthwhile. And just doing it usually takes less time than pondering whether you should do it or not.

Can't you say so in the thread then? That way people coming to the discussion in the future will see your admission of being wrong.

On the one hand, it's not worth it if you have become a traumatising figure(e.g. bad breakup) - an apology can't fix that.

On the other, a heated online argument, you're anonymous and only remembered as one more incident of low level aggression. So sending any kind word is probably good overall.

Nah. In general, I wouldn't call that kinda thing creepy. It seems like you should be able to state that you retract what you said after further consideration.

However, I guess it would really depend on the situation. I suppose it is possible to dream up some scenario in which apologizing would come off as creepy. For example, if you ran into some girl or guy you knew from high school and decided to apologize for some mundane thing you did that no one would ever remember and, thereby, let on that you've been thinking of them for years despite never having had any actual contact. Not saying your situation was anything like that. Just a hypothetical.

Putting aside for discussion's sake the question of the very existence of any merits at all of compassion... why particularly should I ever be self-compassionate?

A person cannot control other people's actions the way they can control their own; and that's one of the few reasons I can't berate other people for their mistakes to the extent that I can berate myself for my own. Indeed, for that same reason, when I make mistakes, my response to myself is little more than the vilest of fury: the ability to act correctly (including the ability to learn it) was within my own nervous system, yet I clearly neglected to use it.

(For example: previously this comment contained several typographical errors. Rereading the comment repeatedly, revealed each typo ... but there's no excuse for any of them to have even escaped the keyboard.)

You'll probably live a longer, happier life, and do more good for others in the world, if you have compassion for yourself.

I don't agree with this. You don't have as much control over yourself as you think you do. Your genes and your environment play a huge role on how you act and behave. Of course I am not saying that you shouldn't take responsibility for your actions--you should. You should see where you went wrong and try your best so that it doesn't happen again. If you observe your emotions closely, you might find that berating yourself is often a way to 'feel good' (oh look how self aware I am, how virtuous I am for recognizing my mistakes) without actually accomplishing anything. And research backs this up. People who berate themselves over mistakes are less likely to implement behavioural changes.

It is inevitable that you'll make mistakes. You'll make mistakes everyday. So it is best to accept this and get over yourself--to focus on improving yourself. I like to think of it as treating yourself as you would your best friend. If your best friend makes a mistake you wouldn't berate him, nor would you encourage him to keep making the same mistakes. You would instead, with compassion and respect try to help him out.

Disclaimer: this post might sound kind of righteous and condescending. But that's not my intention. This is based on my experience with my own self. YMMV

> best friend

Far from it! After the kinds of procrastination that I've done previously in undergraduate, I think of myself as my worst enemy.

(Or at best, sometimes, as a worst-enemy who has been defeated and is paying reparations a la Versailles.)

I am an advocate of apologies and have to actively practice not apologizing too much. I really believe in the value that can come of them, but that value is also dependent on how they are responded to. There is no hard rule, of course. It’s delicate. But, I see apologies punished and taken advantage of most of the time they are given, especially in “professional” environments. When someone apologizes, the response should probably be difficult. If it’s easy, it may be worth thinking about it a little longer.

Thankfully, I think I have learned what best works for me: don’t befriend or work with others who do not share my values. It’s almost impossible but it gets much easier with time.

Interesting to note that the original meaning of "apology" was far closer to "excuse" or "defence" than the present "acknowledgement" or "atonement".

https://www.etymonline.com/word/apology

http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=apo...

Note that the inverse is not true.

I'm sorry, but, I wish studies like these would share at least the sample size without having to pay for it, considering every hack publication will report on it as "fact." Not that I disagree with the study, I'm just curious how they did the test.

The sample size isn't by itself enough to conclude much.

I agree that large enough sample size is not a sufficient condition to reach a correct conclusion, however I will argue that it's a required one.

Not by itself, but in the scheme of things, it makes a huge difference. Studying or polling 100,000 people across the world is way different than doing the same with 100 people at her University.

Your opinion is perfectly justified and certainly not harming anyone, no need to apologize for it!

To all the people saying apologies are worthless, you probably feel that way because you get too many worthless apologies.

Personally, I don't count it as an apology unless they acknowledge how they've hurt you, expressed remorse, and made a commitment to change. I've known many people who can only manage the first two (at best), and it drives me insane.

this seems to vary a lot between countries.

Also, it's interesting looking at web sites that have comment sections with voting. Often admitting a mistake will attract more negative votes than stupidly insisting that a bad comment is ok. (which i think is a terrible commentary on the tech industry or the blood thirstiness of web site comments).

In other news people who are less willing to smile also tend to be less friendly.

That's not really parallel to what the article says.

... Or lives in a different part of the world than you.

You mean like narcissists?

This article is clickbait garbage.

NSFW due to language... but obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwfuUyTMpVY

Apologizing is a selfish act, so this make sense on the title alone.

Apologizing is only selfish until you want one yourself. Then they can be extremely meaningful.

The culture of over-apologizing should not be confused with the ability to admit serious mistakes and acknowledge their impact--this is simply accepting responsibility in a social context.

This doesn't add much to the conversation unless you care to explain how a social interaction can be reduced to a character flaw in all cases.

Honestly I don’t understand the purpose of an apology. They also seem inherently dishonest (you’re sorry, and you did it? that makes no sense).

I’ve also never felt better after being apologized to, and I’ve never had an apology improve my situation or anybody else’s, at any point in my life, ever.

I have however had it be construed as an admission of guilt that exacerbates things. So at least apologies have that going for them!

Apologies are childish. I think they’re something adults force on children because they want to believe their children are remorseful and still “good.”

Anyone have a good pro-apology argument? I can’t think of one.

You've never made a mistake before?

Example: you play soccer, you tried to tackle for a ball and misjudged your tackle and kicked the player instead of the ball, why would not your apology be honest? You honestly did not want to hurt the player, I would feel better if I hear an apology

Yeah, that makes sense. Apologizing for genuine mistakes that have consequences for others, that makes sense.

Typically nobody apologizes for mistakes unless there are consequences for someone else.

I think part of an apology has to be the understanding that the problematic behavior will change.

Is this comment a satire?

No, you're on HN

Yes.

I mostly agree. I apologize a lot less than I used to.

Once in a while, I find it meaningful to give an apology, usually not by itself but as part of an attempt to right things. Without trying to make things right, yeah, apologies are mostly manipulative BS intended to massage feelings so as to avoid having to actually fix anything.

I think the difference is the individual's personal experience with apologies.

For me in my life, I've apologized mostly insincerely to placate emotionally unstable and abusive people.

I've also had apologies demanded of me by mostly those same people, usually as a tactic to get an admission of guilt to use as leverage to escalate the conflict and justify higher degrees of abuse.

If I played a lot of soccer and accidentally kicked people in the shins a lot growing up, I'd probably feel differently.

I spent many months withdrawing from medication while participating on a particular email list. During that time, I often said things in a less than stellar fashion and I repeatedly wrote sincere, heartfelt apologies and posted them publicly to the list.

The result: I became everyone's bitch. People could randomly start shit with me because they just felt like being an asshole that day and the entire list would go "There she goes again!" and blame it entirely on me and start some beat down.

This is the exact opposite of the result I would have expected. I would have thought it would prove I was a decent, respectful person who deserved respect in return etc. Nope.

I write a lot fewer apologies these days because most people are just assholes and I have no plans to volunteer to be their bitch.

Maybe the particular email list vis-a-viz your expectiation was the problem? Seems like it was a sparring ring, which is fine if that's what you want from it, but not if it's not.

I don't think so. I do think some social environments are particularly bad about things like that. But it is really rare for people to be genuinely respectful.

A lot of genuinely nice people just never have it come back to them. They just keep getting taken advantage of. Everyone expects them to be "nice" in the face of terrible behavior. If they get fed up with it, they get accused of being in the wrong.

This seems to be tied to that thing I hate so much: pecking order. Apologizing doesn't signal you are decent, honorable etc. It signals you are low man on the totem pole. And it opens a door on horrible social crap. Good luck closing it once it is open. Best to just not open it.

It depends on your audience.

If your audience is emotionally healthy people, they see an apology as you saying "That thing I just did? Yeah, that's not what I think normal, acceptable behavior is." That makes them more willing to give you a free pass for the time you messed up (because we all know that we all mess up from time to time).

If your audience is bullies, control freaks, and other such jerks, an apology is handing them a loaded gun that they can point at your head.

If your audience is mixed, I have no idea what course to suggest...

Speaking as someone who has a lot of experience with people who don't apologize in their immediate family, apologies do one thing and do it well. They de-escalate situations in which honest mistakes have been made, and decrease resentment over time for those mistakes. People who don't apologize create the impression that they don't actually care about other peoples' feelings, and guess what: we notice that.

If I make a mistake which hurts another party, which I do often, I apologize to said party. In those instances where I make a mistake and apologize, I do so to assure the other person that it was not my intention to hurt them, but rather I had made a mistake.

Here are some easy ones, none of which fall foul of your complaints:

1) You do something you thought was right and then afterward, someone explains something that makes you realize it was wrong.

2) You happen to not be a robot, and you let emotion, thoughtlessness, carelessness, etc get the best of you temporarily, perhaps because you're distracted or tired or stressed. In a later moment of clarity, you realize that you disagree with your behavior and you make that clear to the other person.

Apologies serve a pretty significant functional purpose. They're a relatively costly emotional signal to someone that you are aware that what you did was wrong and will try to avoid it going forward.

Note that this is why apologies tend to be more relevant with those you have an existing relationship with: with strangers, it's both easier to fake sincerity and it'd never checked that your following behavior is consistent, so the signal is a lot less costly and thus less useful.

The whole reason for apologies is emotional: person who was hurt feels a relief knowing that the offender understands their mistake, regrets it and intents to avoid similar behaviour in future. Offender feels a little better knowing that the victim does not hold a grudge and does not intend any revenge.

Of course if neither victim nor offender felt any human emotions then apology would make no sense to them.

Apologies make sense when your predictions are imperfect and there is uncertainty around your hidden brain state. So, often. An apology lets the recipient know the fault didn't lie with your objective function, but with your predictions. It also signals to the recipient that you care about them.

Examples:

-You make a joke that offends someone when your goal was to make them happy not offended

-You make a mistake at work that you thought would save everyone time but now causes someone else extra work

-You accidentally knock someone down while playing sports

In all of these examples you had a friendly objective function that because of imperfect prediction resulted in an unfriendly outcome. An apology tells your victim that the pain you caused them was accidental, not purposeful, and reassures them that you care about them and will exert effort to not hurt them in the future. These are things worth saying because otherwise the apology recipient may not know.

P.S. I am sorry you are being downvoted. You laid out your thinking and asked for examples that could change your mind. I find that pattern commendable.

I've felt better when people have apologized to me, and I've felt better when I apologize to others. When someone has been wronged, it's better to clear the air, acknowledge what happened and move on with a repaired or even improved relationship. The alternative is... what? Just pretending it didn't happen? Has a tendency to just make bad feelings and false assumptions fester with a lot of people.

>> you’re sorry, and you did it? that makes no sense

You did it, and it was the result of a miscommunication, or your feelings have changed, or you didn't realize what the consequences would be. What you're saying is that you recognize what happened, you empathize, and you're willing to change some things to do better. If the other person doesn't hear this, it can take a long time for them to notice that you're doing better, harming the relationship.

edit: don't think of it as feigning regret, think of it as a chance to properly communicate something that has been miscommunicated.

>you’re sorry, and you did it? that makes no sense

In Vulcan, no. In real life it makes very much sense. We are not one-dimensional cartoon characters, and we can do things for lots of reasons, while also understanding they are wrong and being sorry for the other.

>I’ve also never felt better after being apologized to, and I’ve never had an apology improve my situation or anybody else’s, at any point in my life, ever.

You'd be surprised.

>Anyone have a good pro-apology argument? I can’t think of one.

Well, if one understands that people can do bad things to you or affecting you, but still care for you, an apology can help make it clear that this is the case (that they do care for you, despite what they did).

Lets say you do something reckless, and it hurts me in some way. Without an apology, how can I tell you have genuine remorse? That you regret what you did, and want to avoid it in the future? That you are committed to fix the damage you've done? For all I know, you don't care about me, you don't want to change, and you don't plan on fixing your mistakes. I have no reason to trust you, and every reason to oppose you. An apology convinces me that you're not a threat - just a person who made a mistake. It also reminds yourself that you are capable of mistakes, and that you must not succumb to hubris.

Of course, it shouldn't be an empty apology. For it to work, the feeling must be genuine, and it should be accompanied by action.

Apologising reduces amount of litigation for negligence.

It's complicated.

http://www.millerthomson.com/assets/files/article_attachment...

Intro:

Alberta now has apology legislation. Historically lawyers advised their clients – “Don’t apologize, it can be construed as an admission of guilt in litigation.” Litigation, unfortunately puts people in adversarial positions that generally prevent open and forthright dialogue between the opposing parties. Apology legislation is intended to allow parties to apologize for making an error without the apology being used in the litigation process as evidence of wrongdoing. It does not mean a person can no longer sue. It simply means that the apology can’t be used in the lawsuit. The goal of apology legislation is to prevent litigation. In some cases, plaintiffs simply want some closure, some acceptance of responsibility and aren’t necessarily looking for financial compensation. Apologies can have significant, and some feel almost magical, properties in resolving conflict and restoring relationships. There is an emotional component in all disputes and if that component can be reduced or satisfied, some of those disputes may be resolved without proceeding to court.

I think some of the problem is in the way we apologise. In English we say "I'm sorry", which literally means "I have sorrow" -- or "I feel bad". From that context, I personally don't like apologies. I don't want people to feel bad. Receiving an apology is not a revenge kind of thing.

When I moved to Japan and learned Japanese, I realised that they have a different way to say it: "sumimasen", or in English, "it doesn't end (here)". In that context and apology is a way of saying that you have reflected on the incident and you are continuing to reflect upon it. You aren't just going to ignore the situation.

People often bring up the issue of guilt wrt apologies. In the west, our punishment systems are guilt based. If you do something wrong you are a bad person and you must be punished. But an apology does not have to mean that. An apology is taking responsibility for your part in the incident. It can be viewed as the opposite of being a bad person: you are acknowledging what happened and are intent on acting on that information.

There is a kind of "formula" for a good apology. First, you need to acknowledge the other person's feelings. It's kind of pointless from a "how do I make this better" perspective, but many people are blinded by their own emotions. If you don't acknowledge them, then they will fixate on that emotion and won't get beyond it. Even saying, "I can see that you are upset and I think I understand why" is usually enough.

Second, you need to indicate that you understand what the issue is. You should summarise why you think there is a problem and you should ask the other person for verification. After dealing with acknowledging their feelings, it is vital that you agree on the facts. It is best to avoid discussing feelings at this point -- only discuss what actually happened.

Finally, you need to indicate how you will change your behaviour to make things better. It's often the case that you don't know what to do. A good technique is to ask the other person what they suggest. If you still can't come up with anything good, even saying "I don't actually know how to improve the situation, but I will continue to work on it in the future" will be incredibly useful.

In this way, you help the other person move beyond their current emotional state, you clear up any confusion about the facts and you create a plan to make things better in the future. This is useful, not just for the other person, but for you as well. There is no need to feel guilty or bad.

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