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This is a type of utopia that many of us yearn for, but never appears to have worked at the level of large nation-states. I mean, here are some things that are not taken into account:

- People who can not work because they simply can't hold down a job, period.

- Externalities such as neighboring (or even distant) communes dumping wastewater into rivers etc., or polluting the ground, or air... you get the idea. What about natural calamities, such as earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, and such?

- Conflicts over scarce resources. Water, for example. Communes that rely on a common source of water will likely have conflicts. How are they resolved?

- Any commune is exceedingly unlikely to be good at producing all the things it needs. Trade will need to develop. Does 'self-reliance' exclude the possibility of trade?

- How large should a commune be, to enable innovation? Without innovation, there will be stagnation that will harm the commune in the long run.

- How would a commune handle people that are 'different'? How about criminals within and without?

This is not at the expense of the large nation state, it just limits the power of the nation, preferring to push down the responsibilities to the lowest level possible, rather than aggregating up the moment that any benefits can be found from that aggregation.

We live in a world where (to quote GKC [1]):

> Lancashire merchants whenever they like > Can water the beer of a man in Klondike > Or poison the meat of a man in Bombay; > And that is the meaning of Empire Day.

The advantage of centralization is that we can stop the poisoning all at once (because there is only one place doing the poisoning). However, when the meat is poisoned many more people suffer food poisoning than would if the food packaging were distributed.

  [1]: http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/Songs_of_Education125.html

Probably best to distinguish between "self-reliant economically, but connected to the world economy" vs "closed system". Trying to be self-reliant in terms of physical inputs doesn't work in the oil age. Whereas the various small and micro-states manage to be economically self-reliant while importing staples.

I don't think distributism requires a closed system.

How familiar are you with distributism? It certainly does not advocate for communes! Distributism is merely an (admittedly aspirational) economic system where the ownership of productive property is widespread.

A few of its guiding principles may answer your concerns:

* Subsidiarity teaches that things should be handled at the lowest or least centralized level that is competent to handle them. That doesn't mean that small organizations should be expected to bite off more than they could handle. It may very well be that a giant, multinational corporation is the lowest-sized organization that can handle operating something like an airline, and that is not inconsistent with distributist principles.

* Distributism, as an economic system, is not at all incompatible with things like a strong social safety net. However, it is worth pointing out that if the ownership of productive property were to become more widespread, the need for such a safety net would be decreased.

Why is this form of self-reliance a virtue? To me, it looks pathological; certainly not something we should collectively be working towards.

Reducing interdependence in human society mitigates systemic risk. It absolutely is a virtue to be collectively working towards.

Systemic risk reduction is one effect of reducing interdependence. What are the others? On balance, are they net-negative or net-positive?

I can't say if it's better or not, but we do know that human organizations function poorly at scale. The larger the group, the more difficult it is to communicate, the easier it is to feel powerless, the more the problems of a large chunk of the group are remote and abstract (and thus ignored/missed/downplayed/deprioritized)

I suspect that you also have more corruption and/or abuse of power because (a) the previous entries all empower sociopathic individuals, (b) you have a larger pool from which to find such sociopaths, and (c) you have more positions of power for said sociopaths to fill.

You have all of these problems in small groups, but many of our policing/accountability systems don't function well in very large groups.

I'm not sure any of your claims are backed up by data. Is our larger society more corrupt? Is it more difficult to communicate?

I could just as easily argue that smaller, more insular groups promote distrust of outsiders and lack of empathy, which might lead to more wars. I have no idea if that's true, but it sounds plausible to me.

In the end, actually examining data is what's needed. Until there are facts to assess, we're just spouting wild conjecture.

> I'm not sure any of your claims are backed up by data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number has a decent collection of the research I know of. There is a little hand-waving involved when it comes to "why", but it's notable that multiple researchers over decades disagree about the number, not the base concept. Likewise, studies related to the base concept of the non-technical Brooks Law support the non-linear impact on communication as a group grows (off hand I can't find a study on that, but I know I've read of multiple).

Edit: Also https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/... points out some research about the distance/abstractness I mentioned.

Anecdotally, plenty of governing and/or economic systems (e.g. communism) have historical success in small groups and no examples of success in large groups, but that's a completely different kind of evidence.

The corruption/abuse item is not part of the research, which is why I separated that as "I suspect" Given the above, and what we know about leaders (executives, politicians) and how sociopathic tendencies are an asset to personal success I find it very plausible but I have no actual evidence, thus "I suspect".

> I could just as easily argue that smaller, more insular groups promote distrust of outsiders and lack of empathy

You could, and I'd actually be interested to see any research on the topic because I've not thought about that one but it does match our general experiences about exposure and tolerance to social differences. That's orthogonal to my point though, as I was only addressing internal workings, not interactions between groups.

> The corruption/abuse item is not part of the research, which is why I separated that as "I suspect"

My main point was that the theory was labeled as something you suspect, but the evidence you listed to back up that theory sounded like it was being presented as fact. You've provided resources to back up the claim, at least to some degree (as you note), which is what I was looking for, so thanks. :)

> You could, and I'd actually be interested to see any research on the topic because I've not thought about that one but it does match our general experiences about exposure and tolerance to social differences.

I don't have any, but I also would be interested to see it. I was using it as an example of something that sounded true and that I suspected was true that I had no real evidence of, and thus should be hesitant to assert as true. Unfortunately, by its nature that makes it interesting to a certain type of person, so it ends up teasing us. :/

I'm upvoting you just for engaging in this conversation, even though I thoroughly disagree with you. :-)

The "distributism" described above is the dream of virtually every rural community. People choose to live in rural communities because it's a little piece of heaven for them: they are surrounded by people they know, they have clean air, the earth is right beneath their feet, the stars are bright, the pace is slow, and so on. They want to serve their neighbors and receive services from their neighbors. How is that mindset pathological?

I am always encouraged by innovations that help rural folks be more self-reliant so they can work toward their dream of self-sustaining, independent communities.

The problem is that a small community can’t develop or even maintain advanced technology, including that required for sanitation and healthcare.

So, you either choose total independence and low technology or interdependence with other groups and advanced tech.

Certainly. There will always be interdependence and rural communities understand that; that's why they drive modern pickup trucks rather than horse-drawn carriages. Still, they are always looking for ways to reduce their dependence on cities.

Well, at least until we reach the science fiction utopian dream of nanoassemblers that can make nanoassemblers. Then rural communities could truly be independent.

Although that independence would be like a group of proto humans that knew about fire and how to use it, but not how to make it, and thus carefully guarded it and kept it fed, lest it go out.

Do you think that we'll be able to escape making this tradeoff in the future? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that sanitation and healthcare technology will advance to the point that they can be implemented in smaller communities at similar levels of quality that could be seen in big cities.

I hope we will have healthcare services that don’t require advanced knowledge or infrastructure to operate, but we’ll still need advanced tech to produce them.

I don’t see a way around this, since you always have to start from the same raw materials.

Distributism includes the principle of subsidiarity, it doesn't exclude the fact that you need large organisations to produce some technology, just that you should tend towards the smallest organisation that can achieve what you need. Capitalism seems to be tending towards the opposite where the winner takes all.

Wouldn't it also be possible to see that as rural residents putting on a brave face? The general trend has been towards urbanization globally for the past century or more, and relatively few young people growing up in rural communities seem to be interested in staying in them in the US[1].

1: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-20/rural-ame...

Too many bad actors involved to have a clear sight. Better to start from a clean slate.

That's not true. Almost every person I know in my generation is working hard to buy a piece of land in a rural community.

While your experience might tell you that the reality is that is simply not true. You're countering a statistically sourced statement with an anecdote.

There are two actually statistics underlying the discussion here, and from my reading both points are right (though disagreeing that we're urbanizing is incorrect)...

1) Our general trend is towards urbanization, humanity is now more urban than rural, and every quality of life index shows cities give more good to more people better.

2) Millennials, hipsters in particular, in American markets with crushing real estate prices have recently begun reverse-migrating away from the cities and to more rural areas with romanticized lifestyles creating some new demographic, and real estate, trends.

In terms of pure statistics we're looking at a sub-group with a different trend than the overall group. Most potatos aren't from my backyard, but those potatoes are only getting prettier while the many thousands at the market are getting uglier ;)

I'm totally in the camp who wants to move back to the Midwest and buy some acreage- my point was mainly that the person I responded to flat out stated that the parent commenter was wrong which is not the case.

Statistical significance aside, blanket statements such as what I responded to are simple, not true when compared to reality. I do not believe that humans can be unbiased when interrupting data to form a conclusive hypothesis. This is why the scientific community has a peer-review process to filter out biases.

However, I will agree that my initial response was lacking and would have been better if not stated at all.

:thumbsup:

And every person I know in my generation is working hard to buy a flat in a major urban center. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Isn't that just a reflection of where jobs are, which is in turn a reflection of our increasing specialisation. I know there are almost no jobs for computer science graduates within ten miles of the village I live in. The choice is to move to the city or work in the local supermarket.

> [people] can be self reliant and exist without jobs from corporations, or help from the state. Naturally people would organise as a cooperative or a market of services, exchanging services for services, because they have little money and no corporate jobs. Yet they can work, so they can create a kindergarten for children of the neighbourhood, or a medical clinic, or a mechanic repair-shop, or a construction company, and so on.

How is that self-reliant? It’s different from most of the current developed economies, but it’s still division of labour and relying on others for some things.

> There is no purpose to automation that does not exist in the service of humanity at large, but only for a few.

There certainly is, to the few that are served. Increased productivity that doesn't require manpower/hours has been captured for centuries.

A capitalist economy provides many incentives to privately hold productivity gains from automation, while providing virtually none to relinquish them to the public.

The earth can't physically support the existing human population without great cooperative ventures such as the production of electricity and nitrogen fertilizer. It can't support life at anywhere close to the present day level of prosperity without additional great ventures such as transportation, medicine, telecommunications, money systems, and electronics manufacturing. All known means of operating those ventures depend on the state, including the entitlements granted to corporations.

Giving up these ventures would require such a massive reduction to the quantity and quality of human life, that it would be unacceptable to the vast majority of people.

The Haber process ended humanity's hopes of creating a society based on self reliance.

By every possible quality of life metric, things have been getting better and better for humans.

People have predicted the population bomb many times for hundreds of years, and every time they have been wrong.

Scientists predict human population to peak in 2040 anyway. I think that we can make it till then.

The world supports the current population quite well, right now.

I hope I wasn't predicting a population bomb. What I was suggesting was that the existing population level is sustained by organized human activity at a scale that can't be managed by independent individuals or small groups. Thus a proposed restructuring of society requires a credible plan for maintaining or replacing some specific activities such as the Haber process.

> Distributism (also known as distributionism or distributivism) is an economic ideology that developed in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century based upon the principles of Catholic social teaching, especially the teachings of Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum novarum and Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo anno.

> According to distributists, property ownership is a fundamental right, and the means of production should be spread as widely as possible, rather than being centralized under the control of the state (state capitalism), a few individuals (plutocracy), or corporations (corporatocracy). Distributism, therefore, advocates a society marked by widespread property ownership.

> Distributism has often been described in opposition to both socialism and capitalism, which distributists see as equally flawed and exploitative. Thomas Storck argues: "both socialism and capitalism are products of the European Enlightenment and are thus modernizing and anti-traditional forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

So not to be snarky, but how is this anything more than simple "Marxism, minus the parts that don't work with Catholic religion, plus Catholic religion"?

Shared ownership vs individual ownership, I think?

Properly understood, Distributism is capitalism limited by an understanding of the purpose of capital. Just as there is no mathematical system that can prove all of its first principles, so there is no system of capital that can within itself articulate a just distribution of that capital.

The assertions of Distributism are that:

* Everyone has a right to private property (ad contra of Marxism) * That right to private property is not absolute (ad contra of laissez faire capitalism) * Laws should aim for the maximum distribution of the means of production, rather than the optimal throughput of productivity possible with those means (ad contra of if-it-is-not-100%-it-is-not-a-monopoly capitalism)

This is inspired by Catholic principles and promoted by Catholic thinkers, but it is certainly something one can come to without being Catholic.

>Laws should aim for the maximum distribution of the means of production, rather than the optimal throughput of productivity possible with those means

Won't you just get run out by others who are focused on productivity and can beat you in trade and undercut your prices while delivering higher quality?

By a lot of accounts nomadic life was much better than early farm life. Didn't help the nomads in the end though.

Well, achieving the Marxist utopia involves forcing the genuine owners of capital goods ("the means of production") to surrender those to the state, in practice usually requiring imprisonment, execution, and initially a certain amount of genocide to avoid revolt.

Clumsily named, the aspects of "distributism" being lauded here only seem to involve convincing people to partly own instutitions rather than simply transacting with them as a third party. Seems to me that this reading of "distributism" is just capitalism plus a social norm of a bias toward involvement and ownership, rather than just employment and consumption.

> Well, achieving the Marxist utopia involves forcing the genuine owners of capital goods ("the means of production") to surrender those to the state, in practice usually requiring imprisonment, execution, and initially a certain amount of genocide to avoid revolt.

That is Communism, not Marxism.

No, it's the Marxist part that makes it not work, doesn't matter which inspired party adds their flavour. If you want Marx's society (not saying his analysis, especially of his surroundings, was wholely incorrect), it can only be had by force.

I challenge you to convince me to willingly join in your Marxian ideal, until then I will fight it when it comes to my door, like so many in the USSR understandably didn't, comfortably boiled frogs as the record shows them.

> I challenge you to convince me to willingly join in your Marxian ideal, until then I will fight it when it comes to my door, like so many in the USSR understandably didn't, comfortably boiled frogs as the record shows them.

a) I don't have a Marxist ideal, don't put yourself in a defensive position against an antagonist that is not there. I just don't mix up Marxist economic theory with Communism and Leninism.

b) Your view of history is perverse, and insulting to the many people that resisted and were killed off by Lenin & Co when they took power.

> the many people that resisted and were killed off by Lenin & Co when they took power.

Show me the scores of people taking a stand while being placed under arbitrary arrest. Yeah, sure some people resisted, a whole lot more memorable than the millions who walked with their captors straight to the grave. It's not like they didn't resist because they were bad people or something, they just had no tools to deal with any of this, who on earth did?

For the most part, you're taken by night or in transit, and they show up to dig up your trash to find your cherished letters or the wrong souvenir, you're still wondering if all the other people who were arrested did what they were accused of. What does resisting that even look like?

This was all to prove some fantasy of a man with a weak spirit and infinite capacity to look outside himself for fault; and for Lenin and Stalin it was just their ticket into town.

> a) I don't have a Marxist ideal, don't put yourself in a defensive position against an antagonist that is not there. I just don't mix up Marxist economic theory with Communism and Leninism.

I didn't say you had one, really, I said that if one were to be instituted, it seems it could only happen by force. Marx's conclusions are the fundamental source of the most inhumane behaviours of the USSR, the specifics are just gory decoration. It doesn't matter if the dissidents happen to be suppressed by genocide, imprisonment, or exile; only by suppressing the dissidents can you institute the envisioned solution. There is a considerable proportion of society which will simply not agree to have their life's work taken from them. Tell me what the important difference is between a solution which passively requires genocide, and a realized implementation of that solution.

Granted I'm underslept right now, so say whatever, I'll see it when I'm back on earth.

This already exists, and is in many ways a form of communism. Take a look at kibutz's in israel.

I think GP is referencing a type of Commune, where potentially services, possessions, and responsibilities are shared amongst those who live there. America has had communes as well

Communism is where all property is publicly owned and each is given what they need.

A commune is a self-reliant community, likely to be small - individuals need each other. A communist state is still a state, it is not decentralized like a commune, but very centralized. Instead of relying on each other everyone relies entirely on the state.

From a certain perspective I agree, and though I am a free market capitalist to my core, the free market doesn't preclude an organization behaving in a communist fashion; the free market simply doesn't require it. I very much encourage things like this.

You see it in my locality, none of the local farmers own their harvesting machines, as a group they own the machinery collectively. This is still a long way from communism though.

It's interesting to see your thoughts on UBI, how you connect it necessarily to the state. I think this doesn't have to be the case: https://joincircles.net

I am also very much in favor of distributed, self reliant communities. Yet I want to preserve the advantages of a global linked economy.

I hope that Blockchain technology will help us to achieve this.

I tried to capture some of the thought vectors here: https://gist.github.com/AndreasS2501/2dc6c5813f5fd8abc79aad4...

The problem is around 98% of farmers have to lease their land. Most farmland in the US is owned by a handful of people.

Really want to see a source on this one.

Not sure this fully backs the statistic above, but a detailed USDA report:

https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/74672/60298_ei...

It doesn't clearly state how many farmers lease land, but 39% of acreage is rented.

The 98% statistic appears in the follwing item, but concerns white vs black land ownership, not rental vs. ownership:

https://inequality.org/research/owns-land/

This system already exists in Israel.

There are Kibbutzim, full blown cooperative communities spread across the country (which were the initial backbone of the country but have decline over time). They share income depending on the Kibbutz, but some of these communities are very productive and very well off.

There are also Moshavs that aren’t quite as collective but still cooperative. Everyone in the Moshav shares a fixed piece of land in the community but production and income is controlled by the individual laborer. However, the community will still share costs together, like machinery, supplies, marketing of output.

Both are 70 year+ running models and proven to be successful no reason they can’t everywhere else.