The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers
citylab.com
citylab.com
Other first-world countries in Europe and Asia manage to create comprehensive public transit systems cheaper and faster than the US does -- yet they also have environmental reviews, safety standards, unions, contractors, etc.
They are able to do it simply because the people running the city fear that they won't be reelected if they fail to provide comprehensive, properly functioning public transit. Voters there believe that providing public transit is one of the basic duties of government. It's amazing how streamlined a public project can become if the politicians fear for their jobs.
In the US, voters don't punish politicians for problems with public transit, even in places like New York where most people use it. So it's no surprise that it sucks.
People would gladly accept a corrupt Democrat over a Republican and vice versa purely based on political lines.
To contrast that with partisan affiliation when it comes to national politics, the last time NYC went for a Republican presidential candidate was 1924 for Calvin Coolidge.
You aren't talking about "let's ban smoking and soft drinks" bloomberg are you?
There, fixed that for you.
Look, I'm very progressive, but we need to firmly stand behind "innocent until proven guilty" especially when it is so easy to create a slander campaign against a political opponent. And, yes, even the democrats are capable of that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting
Approval voting is the future of democracy, if we can manage to get our elected officials to change the law out of their favor. Semi-direct democracy would be a nice addition, too.
Approval voting is good for lots of things, but public elections by secret ballot aren't among them, because outside if open ballots and some kind of defined consequence of a particular vote, “approve” vs. “disspprove” doesn't mean the same thing on different ballots.
For single-winner elections Condorcet-satisfying methods are pretty much the gold standard; but minimizing single-winner elections for ones that can use proportional systems (not necessarily party-list; candidate-centered options like STV are viable) is also an important technique.
http://scorevoting.net/BayRegsFig.html
Approval Voting is extremely competitive in terms of performance, and _dead simple_.
There is actually a theorem that Approval Voting will always elect the Condorcet winner anyway, given plausible models of voter strategy. http://scorevoting.net/AppCW
There are lots of other problems with Condorcet, enumerated here. http://scorevoting.net/CondorcetExec.html
This particular argument is pretty devastating. http://scorevoting.net/FishburnAntiC
> minimizing single-winner elections for ones that can use proportional systems is also an important technique.
This is really not well supported. Even compared to the horrendously bad Plurality Voting system, PR has had mixed results. http://scorevoting.net/PropRep.html
No comparison exists between the best PR methods and the best non-PR methods, so it's still very much an open question.
And you may have to get Score Voting or Approval Voting to get PR in the USA anyway. http://asitoughttobe.com/2010/07/18/score-voting/
> Approval voting is good for lots of things, but public elections by secret ballot aren't among them
A significant fraction of the world's major electoral procedures experts support Approval Voting. E.g. www.electology.org/approval-voting
Circa 2011, a group of 22 voting experts researched 18 different systems, and selected Approval Voting as best. http://www.lse.ac.uk/website-archive/newsAndMedia/newsArchiv...
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the book "Gaming the Vote" by William Poundstone.
What such simulations consistently miss is the information problem facing range voting (approval voting has a similar problem; preference systems don't entirely lack information problems but they are much smaller.) And that is that, contrary to simulations where preferences are based on quantified utility and there is a clear and consistent relationship between that and ballot markings on a numerically scored ballots, real world preferences are ordinal preferences which, while they do vary in intensity, are not consistently quantifiable, resulting in radically different score ratings for the same preferences by different voters. (There's quite a lot of research showing that numerical rating systems in all domains have this problem.)
> Approval Voting is extremely competitive in terms of performance, and _dead simple_.
Approval Voting again suffers from an information problem like range voting; there's no consistent mapping from actual preferences to ballot markings. This is easily solved if you are doing open-ballot voting for a group activity—eithet treating “approve” as a binding commitment to participate if the approved action is chosen or “disapprove” as a binding opt-out nearly resolved the information problem. In scenarios like that, Approval is a great system.
Likewise, Range Voting is great in a scenario where your score is a commitment to contribute an amount of resources proportional to the rating if the option is chosen.
But when you are voting with secret ballots in public elections, these information-problem mitigations don't apply.
> No comparison exists between the best PR methods and the best non-PR methods, so it's still very much an open question.
Comparisons in actual government satisfaction between countries do exist and show that proportionality of outcomes is key. See, e.g., Lijphart’s Patterns of Democracy. The absence of flawed, limited, abstract mathematical comparisons that ignore key features of the real world is not particularly a problem.
> And you may have to get Score Voting or Approval Voting to get PR in the USA anyway.
The article making that case considers the federal situation ignoring the possibility of bottom-up reform from the states, which is possible because many states permit the citizenry to bypass the politicians to institute reforms from the ballot box directly. And bottom up reform is desirable anyway.
> A significant fraction of the world's major electoral procedures experts support Approval Voting. E.g. www.electology.org/approval-voting
I don't see any support for that claim on that page.
> I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the book "Gaming the Vote" by William Poundstone.
I haven't read it, but unless the book's own promotional copy substantially misrepresents the argument it makes, I can't imagine I'm missing much of value. Arguing that US Presidential elections going to a candidate other than the most preferred is due primarily to spoiler effects on simple majority elections and that a solution to that would satisfy both the left in the right ignores completely the existence, original purpose, and continued structural effect of the Electoral College.
I work in healthcare and we all know WHY it costs outrageous amount here in the states, but nobody wants to fix it because EVERYBODY has his or her finger in the pie.
Yes, price gouging is a problem, but it's only side effect of a bad system. Healthcare is expensive because there are too many damn fingers in the pie, and nobody wants to pull his or hers out first.
Doctors, hospitals, private insurance, drug distributors, medical device makers, lawyers, pharma, pharmacists, physical therapy center. Guess what all these entities have? IT, HR, Sales & marketing, etc.
So many people seem to always have a point about "Oh if we just moved everything to medicare" or "if we just repealed obamacare" as if there is a silver bullet.
The only thing i think we can know for sure about why the US healthcare system is expensive, it's because of what you said, so many special interests groups that all work within the system and gouge each other every day to keep their heads above water.
Why does Google not want to make all salary and compensation information public? Why do insurance companies want to keep their contracts and payouts with hospitals secret? There is zero reason for these things to be secret. These things should be required to be public.
We can't fix problems if we can't see them.
EG: We find out that 30% of road costs are being wasted by nepotism/contracts given to mates. I just can't imagine how it would work that someone could point it out and anyone would even care.
If the county hired him, he wouldn't get any coverage.
If the state government did, they would probably just bury it to cover their own ass.
The federal government maybe, but then you have issue of jurisdiction and dealing with 50+ audits at once and trying to explain to every state voter about what is happening in their state.
Only other option is independent watchdogs or companies but it still like it would be almost impossible to be even get a proper view of the real corruption from that angle as the government would never let you close enough to the deal making process.
In the end, I really don't know how you can overcome the losses due to government corruption unless voters make significant changes in their behaviour. That or just wait for a whistleblower to blow the lid off it all in some spectacular way.
So people in Upstate New York don't care about mass transit in NYC, and so the representatives they elect to NY state government don't care about it.
Public transit honestly is not even on my radar of issues I care about, because where I live it makes no sense at all.
The city I live in (Los Angeles) covers an area 10x bigger than Vancouver. Even when you compare the metro areas, Vancouver is ~4 times denser
If it were truly the case that rural voters down play the importance of intercity public transit, then Vancouver should have the same dismal public transport priorities that plague NYC. In contrast, Vancouver has a long history of progressive public transit initiatives despite being attached to a very large and sparsely populated province which suggests that NYCs problem isn't the upstate voters.
That would make sense if there were no political subdivisions below the state level with the power to tax and spend, but there are. NYC has both its own revenue sources, including income, sales, and special excise taxes, and its own (quite vast) governmental apparatus with which to spend that revenue in the service of its residents. They ought to have more than the tools required to get projects done -- it's a government on scale with many smaller countries!
NYC also has structures in place like the Port Authority, set up specifically to solve intra-jurisdictional problems (and IIRC with its own funding from tolls).
None of this seems to have helped stop costs from spiraling out of control.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...
"Local services" are almost always driven by non-market based considerations. Politics, not economics, determines contract awards for public works. It's as far from the market as you can get. And our society receives commensurate "value."
Later on, the city built its own third competitor to the two private operators, and eventually ended up purchasing them both. These days the entire system is owned by the state of New York (which took over when the city was out of money during the decline of the 1960/70s).
(There is a lot more nuance here... but the highlight is that the city/state often directly or indirectly financed capital construction regardless of whether they were the operator of the system at the time)
The IRT looked more like the British rail system, with the public lending to the company, which was under public-private management.
By mileage, the BRT built the most. By transit volume, the public-private Dual Contractors outperformed the IND, though that was in part due to the latter's late start. It remains that the bulk of the New York City subway system was, by any metric, built under private management and, by mileage, financed with private capital.
All that said, I have no illusions about whether private ownership would be possible today. (It is debatable whether it was possible then, given they went bankrupt.)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Traction_Company
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_S...
The initial IRT subway was funded by the city with bond issuance, which then contracted the construction and operation of the railway to private bodies.
Later expansions were funded by a mix of public and private funds - but again, with the city retaining ownership of the property and leasing to private hands for operation.
The NYC subway was never a private enterprise in the usual understanding of the word. It's frustrating when achievements like the NYC subway are attributed to free-market triumphalism when there's nothing in its history that justifies this conclusion.
Are you serious? Groceries in the US are surprisingly expensive compared to Europe.
Notables with cheaper groceries are Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Spain, Poland, Ukraine.
[1] - http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Cost-of-livin...
It is one of those things that are hard to research effectively, but when I stayed in France for a few months groceries were definitely more expensive.
Unless your comparing to some boutique grocery in the US.
The US is WAY cheaper than Canada.
The 'new commanding heights'[1] of the modern U.S. economy are all the least capitalistic markets: education, healthcare, and housing.
Nor would I expect "local services" to be much more 'capitalistic' if you're referring to services provided by municipal governments.
[1]: [The New Commanding Heights | National Affairs](http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-new-c...)
'new commanding heights'[1]
That source is from 2011, in the depths of the recession.Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.
Adding all the oversight in order to "prevent" political cronyism just made things worse by increasing the barrier to the small guy being able to compete.
(Normally, I'm a big believer in oversight to avoid corruption and graft. However, I have a friend who tried to bring broadband to his little town. Between the open meeting laws, requirements for bid, big telecoms swinging in at the last minute when they couldn't care less until it looked like something might go through, etc.--he'd have received less grief if he just murdered everybody involved and went to prison ...)
*with a little bit of scrappy opposition emerging in the last few years.
> Unfortunately that's not what we have
We're stuck because "invisible hand" zealots keep doubling down on deregulation when faced with the phenomenon of market failure, as if they stay willfully ignorant of "market failure" the market will magically start behaving.
[1] http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2013/06/18/7-Important...
[2] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-do...
I didn't even mention Europe.
There is clearly something out of whack on public infrastructure projects, which have very little to do with "efficient capitalistic markets".
I'm not sure how you get from there to your statement about "local services" not being addressed by the market. It isn't clear what other things you think are broken. Mainly just suggesting that more specificity would clarify your point.
Exactly my sentiment. However, my take away is there are too many middlemen dealing with middlemen dealing with ... Everyone's gotta get greased with before each blow by the the worker carrying out the physical labor.
There's already an amazing nationwide public-private transit network: they're called airplanes. But on the local level it's politicians kowtowing to the people who scream bloody murder when anything but heavily subsidized private transportation is incentivized.
First, management. I don’t exactly know where it comes from, in the land of Westinghouse, Edison, Tesla, and the likes, but being an engineering project leader is not seen as the career path of a winner. It’s all about business, storytelling, laws and politics, where the power and the money is. Compare that to Germany where the chancellor is a PhD in physics and there you go.
Second. Individualism. No. Team. Spirit. Everybody wants to be with the best at what he/she does and recognized at such. There is no willingness to fill cross functional gaps, people are absurdly specialized, resulting in very inefficient performance at the collective level and surprisingly high level of bureaucracy.
Third. Protectionism. US established market is protected against foreign competition. The net result is that the US consumer is never benchmarking what he gets against real alternatives. His appliances are crap. His social protection is bad. His car is a good laugh compared to most Japanese or European models. As a consequence he as no notion of how good a deal he is getting on such things (and in most cases, he is being ripped off).
The combination of the three explains quasi all of the shortcomings noted here. I believe these problems were not as acute some decades ago. I think these behaviors have been pushed to the extreme through the various US tax reforms that have allowed very few to capture most of the wealth, thereby promoting the above behavior.
It’s not the first time in US history though. I believe it will be fixed eventually because it’s becoming too absurd. :)
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/01/27/construction-c...
And the worst, most inefficient public sector of any developed country.
It chooses to prioritize the private sector over the public sector. Other countries choose otherwise. Each model has its advantages and disadvantages.
This (efficiency of building public transit) is the outcome of the US model.
The US probably has the best, most efficient private sector of any developed country.
All you have to do is look at healthcare to realize this is (at least a) questionable assertion. I mean, it's dogmatic to believe so as an American but it's at least worth a proper look at.Note: I'm not saying regulation is bad. Just making the point that healthcare is really not a free-market in this country and never has been.
The US healthcare system is extremely far away from being a free market style system. Healthcare hardly even crosses state lines. It's absurdly regulated. It's about as regressive in terms of markets as it gets these days. Over half the US system is government healthcare now, either directly or indirectly; eg heavy subsidies, SSD, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, VA, numerous other programs.
Part of the reason for the vast cost inflation, is that the system has gradually spread out to cover a lot more people over the last 30 years. 5% of people are half of the cost in the US system. In a market system, if you focus on covering the other far healthier 95%, the system is dramatically cheaper - that's how it worked in the 1970s-1990s, and US healthcare was radically less expensive. 50% of people in the system (in terms of cost) are only 3% of the total cost of all healthcare in the US, you can cover those people for extremely inexpensively in a free market system.
By changing the system as they have, such that you commingle government and quasi-private systems, you risk dramatically screwing up a private market system and the government system simultaneously. Ultimately you can do one or the other, you can't do both at the same time and in the same phone booth where they constantly collide. You get the worst aspects of both worlds, which is what the US now has.
The Scotsman here in particular is a truly free market.
Arguing the converse would be precisely the no true Scotsman fallacy.
The original point, that it's not fair to blame the free market for the dysfunction in the American healthcare system, is still a valid one. A main point is that "shopping around", even for commodity procedures, isn't really possible. Also, there aren't many remedies for consumers caught in undesirable contracts with health insurers. Quitting a job or moving states to fire an insurer is wholly unreasonable.
That depends on the country. Energy and telecom are quite free markets in many countries, especially with local loop unbundling and separation of generation, transmission and distribution.
And compare that to "Almost nothing is a free market" which you claimed. Now it's the opposite: most markets are free, but some, which depend on restricted physical infrastructure, are not.
Very different from your claim.
At any rate I’m obviously not big articulate in the time I have for here, so I’ll leqve it at that.
> in fact a huge fraction of the US economy is very much not free market
Indeed, many industries depend on highly limited resources, such as land, natural resources and so on.
You literally said: "Almost nothing is a free market".
Yes I did, in a broader context, which it is commonly assumed the reader is following.The things distorting these markets in the US are typically nothing as simple as land, natural resources, etc... more they are policy decisions and politics. Suggesting otherwise is facile.
That really is the last I'll say on the issue.
What does "Almost nothing is a free market" means "in a broader context"?
We’re not going anywhere where useful now.
Healthcare companies are more profitable in the US than anywhere else in the world.
Yep, "most efficient private sector" still applies.
I'm not talking about efficiency as in providing the best bang for the buck to consumers, companies and investors don't care about that. I'm talking about returns. Cold, hard cash.
1. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/PublicSe...
Here's one issue with your source:
> The United States is one of the most efficient countries because no other country achieves its level of public sector performance with less government spending.
This is an unfair comparison, since public spending in other countries include national health systems, national pension systems, etc. A fair comparison would be the US vs. other countries including only the same expenditures as the US.
The indicators also seem weird, the US has a higher Education indicator than Germany and Switzerland, a higher infrastructure indicator than Belgium.
Also, the study is from 2007, using data up to 2005. Things changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Take a look at all the government shut-downs, etc.
Allowing private companies to extract economic rents from the public is good for the private sector, bad for the public. And vice-versa.
Take social expenditures, for example. The US spends 80%-90% of what Germany, Netherlands and Switzerland spend per capita PPP, yet the public services and social welfare in the US are abysmally bad.
Efficient at extracting rents and higher profits, yes.
> And you haven't addressed the difference in public service efficiency since 10% in scale is not nearly large enough to explain order-unity inefficiencies in the US public sector. (And in absolute terms the US is larger, anyways.)
Wait, you do know how good social services are in Germany and Switzerland, and how bad they are in the US, right?
If I had to rate social services in DE and CH, I'd give, let's say, an 8 and a 9.
Now in the US, well, maybe a 4 if you're lucky.
And they cost about the same per capita.
Such as?
> in particular note that we are discussing public sectors, not just social services
Sure, let's discuss government-owned companies. And let's discuss infrastructure investment. And research spending. Oh, education too.
Pick one. The US is far less efficient than most of its peers in healthcare spending, government-owned companies, infrastructure investment, military spending, education, taxing, etc.
Please, tell me, where is the US government so efficient?
I'm pretty sure most who live in their own developed country think their own public sector is the most inefficient. Well, maybe not the Swiss.
> Well, maybe not the Swiss.
Yep, reasonably true.
Important to remember that when comparing SV tech salaries to the rest of the country.
For the geek part: when trains shift from one network to the other (RER B between Châtelet and Gare du Nord), they free-wheel while they transition power from one network to the power of the other one. On the rare occasion that a train has to stop in the middle of that dead zone, it can't move anymore...
The US half tries to fund and administer infrastructure at the federal level, state level, as well as local level, depending on the state.
As an American, I find the EU to have phenomenally good infrastructure, but I think that's because decisions aren't being made in Brussels, they're being made concurrently in Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, London, etc.
I feel that the US would do well to emulate the EU, and centralize the funding, regulation, and administration of its respective systems in each member state.
I learned that in one of the office buildings in NYC, there is one (sometimes two) custodians who press the elevator buttons and call out the next one to arrive. These are modern elevators with indicator lights above them. I learned it was because of a union requirement.
I always liked the idea of unions, having learned about how workers were trampled on "in the old days". After moving to NYC, however, my opinions toward them became a bit more tempered.
Edit: Was this not an accurate summary of the key issues mentioned?
I'm genuinely curious btw. I wouldn't be surprised to hear it's a counterreaction to historically irresponsible employers, for example, but I do wonder about the rationale behind U.S. union rules as reported.
Because union members vote and because unions so visiblly represent the working-class, in many cities the best way to be pro labor is to support union labor.
In areas were unions are strong but increasingly relegated to public sector work, that translates to pressure to bloat public sector projects with union labor.
One way to think of it is as a form of work program.
On a related note, some conservative commentators have pointed out recently that if you combine U.S. healthcare spending with U.S. welfare spending, it roughly equates to what European countries spend on healthcare + welfare. IOW, we don't overspend on healthcare so much as we trade-off social welfare spending for healthcare spending.
Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if you combine the overspending on public works projects with similar jobs programs, it would likewise roughly equate to what European countries spend on public works + jobs. IOW, public works projects are expensive because we refuse to adequately fund training, long-term unemployment benefits, etc.
I think this is all comes down to Americans' inability to embrace the necessity and role of social welfare programs. But because we can't admit of the need doesn't mean our society doesn't ultimately respond to the need; our response is just obscure and indirect in a way that preserves the fantasy of the free-market. For example, we can blame these excessive public works projects on "corruption" and "bloat" rather than admitting that they're pressure-relief valves for legitimate political, economic, and social demands. Something similar could be said regarding the Trump phenomenon.
1) The institution of civil service was the solution for solving the problem of graft. Plunkitt even says that if politicians didn't fight the wave of civil service rules spreading across the country, it would put all politicians out of business. The red tape of the bureaucracy is the price we pay for getting rid of traditional graft.
2) But the civil service didn't magically erase the needs that were met by Tammany Hall-style politics. Back in the day "corrupt" politicians like Plunkitt were open about their graft, and voters voted them in regardless. Why? Because they provided the promise of job security; that if you do X you'll get Y--something the free market never guarantees at the individual level. The need and desire for job security never went away when the civil service came about, it just made it more difficult for voters and politicians to make an open, conscious exchange.
One easy way for politicians (intentionally or naturally, in response to dynamic political feedback) to provide a simple quid pro quo is to bloat public works projects. It can't be a coincidence that as relative wages for blue-collar construction work have declined, public works projects have gotten more expensive. That is, we've _tolerated_ more expensive public works projects to relieve/because it relieves the employment and wage pressures put on laborers in the private sector. That's easier to do than to affirmatively institute employment and wage supplementation programs.
We spend alot of time explaining the phenomenon in terms of loss of talent, experience, regulatory capture, etc. But perhaps the best and simplest explanation is precisely what Plunkitt was trying to drill into people's heads--nobody is going to vote themselves out of a job, no matter their claimed political preferences. I bet most Second Avenue Subway workers were as "disgusted" with the bloat as every other New Yorker, but their _real_ political preferences (and those of their families and friends) were better measured by who and what they voted for than by what they said. People's ire is easily blunted when receiving a nice, steady paycheck.
None of which is to defend honest graft. Plunkitt thought the only way to meet the needs of the small guy was through honest graft. There are better ways, I think, which are more efficient and therefore permitting greater overall social benefit. But those ways aren't achievable if we don't recognize and attend to the underlying economic and political forces, which will tend to steer things in certain directions whether we like it or not. The reasons things haven't changed despite the obviousness of the problem is because of these very real, counterveiling political forces. Those forces are far greater than just a few rich special interests.
if automation lowers amount of labour needed, it's less work that the workers have to do, not fewer workers that the employer needs to hire.
In the US either employers want to squeeze all they can out of the work force and get rid of unions or the unions get greedy (see police unions who happily bankrupt municipalities for their pensions). Maybe it's a reflection of the "winner takes it all" political system.
This is entirely based on my thoroughly unresearched preconception of the matter, BTW.
France, for example, has one of the largest transport/trade unions (CFTD and CFT) and much stronger union laws than the US. And yet Paris has the second busiest and comprehensive metro in Europe, second only to Moscow. Not to mention how clean it is compared to anything in the US, a beautiful feat of design, architecture and engineering on its own, even!
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Democratic_Confederat...
And, I would also like to point out that the cost per mile drops dramatically as the NUMBER OF MILES goes up.
Note that most of the foreign projects mentioned are 3+ miles. And note that even the US projects which are longer magically cost less.
So, perhaps the issues are:
1) a mayfly has an attention span longer than the average US voter and so getting projects approved and committed to for long durations borders on impossible
2) most contractors understand that their funding could be pulled at any time due to the vicissitudes of said mayflys, so they book as much revenue as possible and do as little work as they can until the pressure becomes overwhelming and the voting public is actually COMMITTED to funding and completing the project
Edit: although im being downvoted, lowercase subway would make the title less ambiguous.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-...
Would switching to single payer not be disruptive to the entire insurance industry?
How much innovation has come out of military research?