America's Love Affair with Avocado | Hacker News Reader

America's Love Affair with Avocado

economist.com

96 pointsjkuria127 comments

Afraid you have nothing on Australians affair with Avocado.

https://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2016/10/17/i-stopped-e...

It's a staple of the Australian diet, fairly certain it's one of the 5 fruits a day over there adorned on the walls of schools across the country. Seriously though, I've seen Avocado go for $6 a piece.....those were hard times.

And at least the affair is with the avocado itself and not the color as it had been in the UK[1]... Of course now, an avocado bathroom will cost you 5-8000 pounds in resale value, so better spruce up the 70s chic before listing[2]. On the other hand, it apparently is making a retro comeback.

[1http://www.houseandgarden.co.uk/interiors/bathroom/avocado

[2]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4282662/Avocado-bath...

Straddling the line of off topic

I'm sorry you got downvoted like that, but there are different flavors of offtopicness on HN and some of them are quite welcome. Whimsical tangents, particularly, that veer off in some unpredictable direction, can be quite good for intellectual curiosity, which is the main value of this site.

The kind of offtopic discussions we really want to avoid are the generic and predictable ones. This includes vapid comments and ideological/political flames.

Those following along in other countries should also know that, amongst younger people, an Avocado is a typical house warming gift to friends who have recently purchased a house. Which, when you stop and think about it makes even less sense that the original proposition.

They likely never had avocados before (which is how they could afford to buy a house).

> amongst younger people

> recently purchased a house

Doesn't match up.

You realize that a lot of people don't live in hyper-expensive cities and purchasing a house even in your early 20s is not a huge deal? Here in North East of UK you only need about 10k for a deposit for a new house, it's hardly impossible to save that much if you have a job. London, sure - it's almost impossible. But not everyone lives in London.

I was replying to a (tongue in cheek?) comment about young people, avocados culture, and Australian home ownership. The assumption was this was specifically referring to Sydney and Melbourne.

What would the original proposition be?

Here (Germany) it is a loaf of bread and some salt I think; is it the same?

Same in Poland - bread and salt.

I never understood the "smashed-avo" obsession but they're great in a vegemite and cheese toastie.

Avocado is a high fat fruit. So for vegans or people on low fat diets they're especially delicious.

And it's great if you're on a high fat diet, you can eat all the avocados you want! I hadn't even ever tried one before.

Where on earth are you from that you've never tried an avocado!?

lol, Canada. I've always seen them, but they just look gross peel on or off. Little did I know, they're delicious.

Yeah at least it's not the great lime shortage of 2014 https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/upshot/why-everyones-talk...

If you think those prices are bad, don't go to New Zealand.

I have no idea why, but limes are extortionately expensive in New Zealand, even for imported goods.

They're currently NZ$35 per kg (over US$10 per lb).

It's standard to get a slice of lemon in your Corona (which are also extortionately expensive in NZ)

Or grow them. They fruit twice a year as far as I can tell and they keep for ages. I planted a hedge of them and give away supermarket bags full regularly. Most things taste better with some lime juice. They require zero care and at the current 35+ degrees Celsius, are borderline a requirement for living.

One doesn't just "grow things" in New Zealand.

I dunno, our huge hedge of feijoa trees beg to differ.

I guess you got your license in order, eh citizen?

> Or grow them.

NZ prisons might be better than US's but that's not saying much.

Someone's going to have to explain the lime police to those of us how aren't New Zealanders and have no idea what's going on here.

Oh it's not a "lime police", NZ has nothing against limes specifically, there is no special treatment.

It's just gardens in general which are illegal (without a license, obviously) https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/2nem47/can_you_...

If limes (or anything else, like grass, or strawberries, or potatoes, or mint, ...) happen to grow on your property it's fine and you can collect them, but if you tend to them or there's evidence you planted them it's gardening, and the penalties can be steep.

And police don't look kindly on non-native tasty edibles[0] which "just happen" to grow on the properties of unlicensed owners, as often as not the owner is assumed at fault and fined (though of course the harshest penalties like prison require positive evidence of guilt).

[0] and NZ has very few native or pre-european plant edibles at all, let alone tasty ones: https://teara.govt.nz/en/1966/plants-edible-native

  It's just gardens in general which are illegal

I'm afraid you've fallen for a hoax [1]. Gardening is a legal and popular pastime in New Zealand [2].

[1] http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/new-zealand-gardening-law-hoax [2] http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/new-zealand-gardening-...

> I'm afraid you've fallen for a hoax

Whereas I'm reasonably convinced you're a joyless shitpail[0] who manages to "well, actually"[1] a joke.

[0] https://www.oglaf.com/roguearsenal/

[1] http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1116378-starter-packs

Good grief. Personal attacks will get you banned here. Really, please don't do that, regardless of how nitpicky another comment was or how annoyed you feel.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Is there some sort of water or soil restrictions that warrant the licensing requirement?

I know NZ can be resource limited for a couple of reasons, but I'm trying to imagine why growing things would present enough danger to warrant the law being involved.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/new-zealand-gardening-... ?

Don't believe that article people, it's the Huffington Post, everyone knows they're full of shite.

During the great lime shortage I continued to get a great deal on limes from 99 Ranch. The whole thing was a total joke.

The Chinese community has their own sub-market:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-fruits-and-veggies-are-so-c...

There are 99 ranch's in Australia?! I don't know why, but I love that. Even in the US, it's one of the best places to get produce.

I still remember my mum and grandparents talking and complaining about the absurd prices of bananas in... 2007?

A cyclone destroyed quite lot of banana plantations in Queensland, which caused banana prices to shoot up to $12/kg

I saw them recently at South Melbourne market for "$7.99 each", the most I've ever seen them. (AU$8 = US$6.46 each).

There's a growing interest in Nepal as well!

Prices have also increased because the Phytophthora Root Rot fungal infection has killed off whole avocado orchards in many areas.

http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/r8100111.html

I don't understand how high avocado prices could cause Chipotle to loose money. Guacamole is an optional add on why wouldn't they just raise the price of the guacamole to reflect the market price of avocado or use avocado futures to hedge their price risk.

Raising prices for a chain like Chiptole is non-trivial. Think about all those menu boards listing the price of adding guacamole, every one of those has to be reprinted, distributed and posted. IT systems updated, etc.

Not saying they don't do stuff like that all the time, there's just more of a lag between a commodity price rising and a chains ability to raise the price of the end product.

These kinds of decisions are made over fairly long time frames. Someone will be studying the likely effect of each possible price, others are forecasting how long avocado prices might stay high. Lots of disagreements, oh Jim thinks it will stay this high for a year, Mary says another month. Those things have to get worked out before even the decision will be made.

It just takes time and it would have to hurt first (sounds like that day is here), but they will eventually raise the price.

A lot of chains use TV sets to list item pricing now, so that would make it easier. But I agree that it's usually not in the chain's best interest to raise prices often

While I think they should, Chipotle does not use screens for their overhead menus

Also, the customers might not be happy. Especially if it was selling at no extra charge.

Probably a reason they are adding other high margin products like queso to offset shrinking margins on avocado. Guacamole is always expensive but worth it.

Though simplicity and just doing the same thing well is really what Chipotle is or was, much like In-N-Out doesn't need gimmicks, just the same good food consistently with well paid employees so it is quality. Hopefully Chipotle doesn't add too many things.

Based on casual observation of what other customers are ordering from my frequent visits to Chipotle, it seems like queso has been a complete failure. I don't understand why they thought cheese would be something people would pay extra for.

A) Cheese is not usually expensive, like avocado, and so not usually considered worth paying extra for

2) Cheese is known not to be healthy, and part of the appeal of Chipotle is the illusion that you're eating healthy food

3) A different kind of cheese is already available for free, so that substitute good is bound to drive down demand for queso

I did notice that they recently cut corn tortillas and one (or two?) of the meat options, so they at least seem to be cognizant of the benefits of reducing decision fatigue by concentrating on their best-selling options

4) Their queso is not very good.

I use to get queso on my burritos at Qdoba every single time, when that was still around. But their queso was actually good. Chipotle's is not.

I'm not the only person that thinks that. There's articles and memes and all sorts of things about it: https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/09/18/everybody-hates-ch...

Which cheese are you referring to and why do you think it's not healthy? Genuine q

Cheese, generally, contains a lot of fat and salt (as in natrium, I think in the USA it is called sodium). We're consuming too much natrium as it is.

There are other, cheaper methods of obtaining protein. Some of which are locally available. In Africa, for example, insects are used as local source of protein. They have a low Co2 footprint for a variety of reasons:

* Because a lack of transportation (locally available). Especially when compared to trademark protected cheeses such as Gorgonzola.

* Barely any land is used and it can be stacked, allowing more space for other land usage (generally that could be forests, or at least not adding to deforestation).

* No methane enters the air which directly affects Co2 emissions (which cows, generally the main animal used for cheese, do produce a lot).

Compare insects and cheese to avocados: for Europeans avocados are not locally grown, and the deforestation is a "far from my bed" show.

Yeah, but "mac 'n' insects" doesn't quite have the same appeal!

Mac'n Beez

It's all about branding.

> Cheese is known not to be healthy, and part of the appeal of Chipotle is the illusion that you're eating healthy food

What do you mean by illusion? "Healthy" vs "unhealthy" for starters isn't some sort of easy to define line, but curious why you'd make that comment.

The gp might be talking about 'cheese', not cheese, since they also say it is cheaper than avocado.

Queso is a staple of texmex. I have friends from the Midwest lament the lack of queso at local Mexican restaurants in Los Angeles. That said, queso is probably having regional success outside of CA.

Demand curves are downward sloping. Guacamole and main items on Chipotle's menu are complements.

Qdoba, Chipotle's competitor, actually offers guac for free - which is super interesting to me!

There is also Moe's which offers guac for free, but the difference is that they give you 2 tbsp instead of the giant serving Chipotle does, which people might prefer to have and dont mind paying for.

Is there such a thing as imitation guac?

There was a scandal a while back where Kraft was calling a dip 'guacamole' despite having barely any avocado in it: http://articles.latimes.com/2006/nov/30/business/fi-fakeguac...

"We think customers understand that it isn't made from avocado," said Claire Regan, Kraft Foods' vice president of corporate affairs. "All of the ingredients are listed on the label for consumers to reference."

I imagine so, but I have not seen it.

That said, I see guac thinned all the time with salsa (esp. tomatillo-based salsas).

Sometimes sour cream, too.

That is criminal.

I did a casual search and there is no avocado futures. Yet. :)

Chipotle has been recovering from a food safety scandal [1]. So they have to tread very carefully. While raising prices might be trivial they can generate a lot of negative publicity.

[1]: https://qz.com/968286/chipotle-mexican-grill-cmg-burrito-cha...

> I don't understand how high avocado prices could cause Chipotle to loose money. Guacamole is an optional add on why wouldn't they just raise the price of the guacamole to reflect the market price of avocado

Potentially because then price sensitive people to whom avocado is important to enjoyment of the Chipotle menu items compared to other meal alternatives will instead not eat at Chipotle, so Chiptle will lose more money.

That's not what the article claims:

> Chipotle, a Mexican-themed restaurant chain, said that “historically high avocado costs” were a big reason why it posted disappointing financial results last year.

What do you think disappointing financial results because of Avacados is claiming then?

The post I replied to is claiming that they lose money on each sale of guacamole. (This is clear from bringing up the possibility of raising prices of the optional add on guacamole.) However, this is clearly much stronger claim than merely that Chipotle is doing worse financially than if their avocados cost less.

> The post I replied to is claiming that they lose money on each sale of guacamole. (This is clear from bringing up the possibility of raising prices of the optional add on guacamole.)

That's not what they're claiming, they're saying that if ingredient prices rise (e.g. for avocados) Chipotle can raise menu costs to protect margins. Nowhere is it implied that guacamole was being sold below-cost.

Well, the comment did say "losing money", but either way, that's not what was claimed in the article and that distinction is exactly what I was pointing out. High margins does not mean that they do well financially, obviously! Unless you think that the original remark was "I don't understand how raising prices could lose business" then this isn't what the article was saying.

I don't understand what the confusion is: the article says they do less well financially than they would have if their ingredients were cheaper. The original comment here says "but they can always raise their prices" but that cannot guarantee that they do well financially. If the article had claimed that their margins were too low or that the extreme that they were losing money from each sale, then the first comment would have made sense. But it doesn't.

This is the bit that you are missing:

>>Some restaurants were forced to add a surcharge on guacamole, or temporarily to scrap it from their menus altogether. Others swallowed the bill.

They could raise prices but they have chosen not to so far. They may have to in the future. That explains why their financials were not great.

parent comment said "that's not what the article claims", which (if you want to be nitpicky) is correct because the article reports a claim made by the company, without explicitly supporting it.

Obligatory Oglaf : https://www.oglaf.com/incubus/

So much better than "obligatory" XKCD.

It seems like in the 'West' we only get common access to the Hass Avocado. Certainly in Britain anyway.

Having just done a stint in the Caribbean I'm never going to be able to 'enjoy' a Hass Avocado ever again.

Compared to whatever the exquisite orbs of heaven that are sold by the roadside in Antigua they are simply not worthy of merit. It's like making a pencil sketch of a lego recreation of the Sistine Chapel and claiming it can in anyway approach the majesty of the 'real' thing.

For those adept at identifying varieties of Avocado, here's the one I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkNUJjHJMXY

Was proud to find out that the Haas avocado is from Southern California, where I grew up eating them and guac on just about everything. Other states used to make fun of that for years, implying we were all yoga hippies that put avocados on our salads FFS. Guess it’s finally caught on elsewhere.

Was pleased to find a great selection on a trip to New Zealand recently, though kiwis still have trouble with the concept of guacamole and cal-mex recipes in general. Stiil good with just a spoon and black pepper thankfully.

I lived in Santa Barbara in the mid/late 2000s and absolutely fell in love with the local avocados. They were so cheap back then, too. You could regularly find them for 3/4 for $1. The place I worked at back then, one of the technicians would make a big batch of guacamole every single Wednesday, it was awesome. I'm in Orange County these days. I still eat a lot of avocados (it's part of my normal lunch during the week) but they're so much more expensive today and they're also, unfortunately, rarely local any more.

Add some salt and lime juice, maybe ancho chili too :)

Or split it in half, fill the pit holes with vinaigrette, and eat it with a spoon together with bread and butter. Had a lot of fun with that as a kid :)

I used to fill the pits with balsamic vinegar and chopped garlic and smear it on rye toast. FANTASTIC.

Personally, I hate avocado in all its forms (guacamole, etc.). I don't understand what people see, err, taste in them.

My wife, OTOH, loves avocados (I had never tried avocado before she forced me to sample one while we were dating, which I ineptly pretended to sort of not hate), and if I forget to buy several when I do the shopping, I'll find myself trying to make up a story on the spot about how all the avocados at the grocery store were rotten, or they were out. And then she gives me that "I'm not buying it" look, sighs, rolls her eyes and stops speaking to me for a whole five minutes.

EDIT: Ok... Wow, you know this was an attempt at humor, so some of the details may have been embellished a bit. I'll just back away from this thread slowly.

I like avocados because they have a creamy and nutty flavor. They taste a little like green walnuts - not the dried ones from the store, but the raw walnuts from walnut trees. They get your fingers all dark brown when you try to peel the skin and they're delicious.

Also, I wasn't much of a fan of guac until we learnt how to make it at home 2 years ago. Since then we have guac at least twice a week. I still have some left in the fridge. You know what eating chocolate feels like, right? That's the feeling I have when I eat homemade guacamole.

Homemade guac is the only guac worth eating. It's totally different from store-bought.

The concept of store-bought avocado products that isnt just fresh avocado is disgusting to me.

You have leftover guac? That is some extreme self control.

Man those sound good, do you think they ever sell them seasonally in stores?

I have not seen those in stores in the US yet.

I feel they ruin the taste of sushi as well. I wanna taste the raw fish not the avocado.

If they're too unripe, or too bitter, I agree. Otherwise, there are at least some times that it just adds some pleasant richness to the other flavors in the roll.

Order nigirizushi or chirashizushi instead of california rolls?

Have you ruled out that you just got a bad one that first try? They do taste differently, and some are not that good.

This is a strange way to be mean to your wife? I don't get it. EDIT: sorry! Somehow missed the "forget" part of the sentence.

I don't eat fruit, I don't like the taste. When I see dried mangoes, I buy them for my girlfriend because she loves them.

>I don't eat fruit, I don't like the taste.

you can't be serious. you don't like any kind of fruit?

No malice is intended when I forget the avocados. I just forget them. And then I feel bad.

He forgot to buy them. He's not being mean, he's being human.

Forgetting to buy them, yes, that's human.

Trying to cover up instead of just saying "Sorry, honey, I forgot", that's at least tending toward mean.

People sometimes get unreasonable about the things that they love. I just assumed that he was attempting to deflect her potentially unreasonable reaction.

This person habitually attempts to deceive their wife, and from their own account describes her feeling antagonized. I don't think they are "forgetting avocados" so much as they are bullying their partner with plausibly deniable emotional abuse.

His wife forces him to be silent - which is actual abusive behaviour.

"stops speaking to me for a whole five minutes" != "forces him to be silent"

There is no abuse in this anecdote, either way. There's some passive-aggressiveness, and some dismissal, but neither quite rises to the level of abuse.

Oops I miss-read that.

I do find the fact that people are accusing him of abusive behaviour here pretty scarey though.

You save money and enjoy 5 minutes of silence? You are on to something.

I agree, everyone else can have my share of them.

nearly $2.00 a piece wholesale? I'm curious why the market hasn't been flooded by now.

*As pointed out below, it takes at least 5 years for an Avocado tree to produce fruit, which explains why there aren't quick adjustments.

I've never figured it out. They grew like weeds where I lived in Central America, and people generally let them fall to the ground to be eaten by street dogs. I'd imagine logistics for avocados are pretty difficult.

What's the lead time on making an avocado tree? Not as bad as making more programmers I'm sure, but it's not fast either.

You're not wrong - avocados planted from seed take anywhere from 5 to 13 years+ before they flower and produce fruit.

http://ucavo.ucr.edu/general/answers.html

We have a compost bin in the back yard where they sprout from seed spontaneously. I have grown a couple of trees and given some seedlings away to friends.

Fingers crossed, they bear fruit eventually. If not, they make a fairly fast growing tree (2m after 3-4 years) - although this week the leaves burn quickly in the summer heat if inadequately watered.

I have a large avocado plant that I grew from a pit. At only 2.5 years old, it's about 3 feet tall. Definitely won't be ready for fruit any time soon. Maybe when my grandchildren are born (for the record, I do not yet have children).

Yikes...I should have done the research first. I'll edit, thank you.

5 for $5.00 at my whole foods

Large stands of avocado orchards around San Diego were not irrigated and died during the last drought due to the expense of water. A bit of a shame considering the time it take to get an avocado tree to produce. Some of the groves were also quite old and the land ripe for development, so that might have played into the decision of letting the orchards die.

I lived across the street from one of those abandoned orchards at the time. One 150' hose later, and the few trees I was able to rescue kept me, my friends, and my family in avocados for several seasons. Still miss living in that place.

For those who like to eat a half avocado out of the shell with oil and vinegar or other dressing in the hole, try a little soy sauce on its own. Amazing combo.

Avocado is a great substitute for mayo for losing weight, and in my opinion, better tasting as well.

Avocados are delicious, and it seems that demand will continue to rise for the foreseeable future, especially as Latinos become a larger portion of the U.S population.

In addition to latinos and vegans, there is a likely explosion of ketogenic eaters to come very soon, thanks to all the research pilling up about the great benefits of being in ketosis.

Avocados are usually part of an omnivorous ketogenic diet.

Yeah, it's one of the staple superfoods for people on keto, usually. Gives them lots of potassium and all sorts of other goodies that they're missing out on by not eating most fruits.

This. There's also the vegan hype train that needs to be taken into consideration.

Because they are exotic. I lived in Brazil and Peru and they are 5 cents. Fantastic!!!

Not sure how this contributes to this thread, but I’m nearly 40 years old and have never once tasted an avocado. I was born and raised in California but for some reason I’ve always been repulsed by their appearance.

I’ll realize this is ridiculous and will probably get over this at some point.

You're going to be really sad one day when you finally try one and realize what you've been missing.

You live in california and never ate guacamole? I don't think that's even possible.

Hah yes trust me it’s hard to convince people it’s true.

I have more sympathy for flat-earthers than for never-guacs.

If you honestly don't recollect or havent tried it, do it, you will not regret it!

That's funny. I am 58 and pretty much felt the same way all my life. Then a year or so ago when I finally got serious about losing the weight that snuck onto my frame from 45 on, I started a low-no carb diet. Suddenly Avacados became my friend. I now eat them in salads multiple times a week. You are going to be surprised. They are quite tasty!!

If you haven't gotten rid of the phobia by 40, what makes you think your preference will change?

Also -- you've never even had guacamole? Or a California roll? Are you some kind of picky eater?

As a child I thought guacamole looked absolutely disgusting and wouldn't touch it. It's amazing and you must try it.

Avocados make me feel good and taste delicious, so I eat them.

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