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Comment by yarrel | Hacker News Reader

"But suppose we could construct a truly limited mechanism that would give them the ability to recover only a small amount of encrypted data. "

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh wait you're serious.

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This comment broke the HN guidelines badly. Please don't push discussions into the internet swamp here. If someone is misinformed, you can correct them in a way that teaches the rest of us something, too. You can also just post nothing. But please don't post uncivilly or unsubstantively.

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Parent seems to be trying to encourage some real discussion on this topic. For those of us not well versed in crypto, could you elaborate on why this is problematic rather than being dismissive?

Why is this not possible? How could we improve the situation? What are the risks?

Suppose some system like this is actually possible and not just fiction. Then, the FBI still doesn't need it, because the legal system already has a way to address this problem. Warrants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed the criteria for "exceptional criminal investigations" included the obtaining of a warrant to access said data.

Suppose some magical system like this was possible "breakable encryption, but only in the presence of a warrant". What are the arguments against this?

What if corrupt, evil, law enforcement working with corrupt, evil, judges are able to issue warrants and read whatever they want, whenever they want?

How is that a good thing? Please explain.

This is the way things have worked since the United States was formed and is written into the Constitution. Do you actually think the justice system should not have the ability to use warrants? Then you need to change the Constitution.

It needs to work for all countries, not just the US. Please continue your explanation.

All countries with a government have a warrant system. Please explain your point.

As I said: What if corrupt, evil, law enforcement working with corrupt, evil, judges are able to issue warrants and read whatever they want, whenever they want?

I think the problem I see is in there somewhere. Did I state it poorly? How could I state it better?

The point is they already can. You're proposing to change the status quo in every functioning government on the planet. Since these people are ultimately controlled by the voters, they are ultimately acting to fulfill the will of the voters.

No, they can't, at least that's what they're telling us. Some devices, they haven't been able to get into. That is the status quo. Being able to crack properly done, effectively unbreakable encryption is not the status quo, it's a fantasy.

And voting? You are assuming democracy. Also you're forgetting about the tyranny of the majority. If you aren't even going to read what I'm saying, let's just stop here.

You act like encryption is the default state. It isn't. An officer with a warrant has access to your written records in your home and stored with third parties. Why is access to encrypted data magically different and somehow magically overreach where all previous access wasn't?

>You act like encryption is the default state. It isn't.

It wasn't the default state. Past tense. You're taking a very 1980's view. The world has moved on. Sure, there are some types of data that are not yet protected, but that's a deficiency which should be corrected with time.

>Why is access to encrypted data magically different

Nothing magic about it, but it's different for a couple of reasons.

First, because a smartphone is more like an extension of your brain than it is like a file cabinet.

Second, because in the old paper world you imagine (or pretend?) we still live in, the entities interested in accessing people's private data didn't have the internet, so they would have to by necessity go to one house at a time to get written records. Now, they do have the internet, and they can hoover up everything. And they do. "They" meaning not necessarily good guys. Sometimes there are rogue cops, or haven't you heard? Not to mention black hat hackers.

So, because of this extraordinary change in how data can be accessed in bulk, and the personal nature of devices, private data needs better protection. Not magic. Just different times, with different snooping tools, different data, and different devices. So much has changed, you might as well ask what hasn't changed.

Why does encryption magically make a phone an extension of your brain when before device encryption, it wasn't? What do black hats and rogue cops have to do with warrants? Your arguments are all over the place.

Agreeing with other comments, that seems like a problem with warrants in general, not with some supposed technology. If cops can get a warrant to raid anyone's house then of course they'd be able to get a warrant to raid anyone's phone in this situation. The solution to that issue would be to fix how warrants are granted to make them less prone to abuse. But that seems like an entirely different debate.

You don't have to resort to complicated cryptography: anything the FBI can decrypt, anyone who knows what the FBI knows can also decrypt: is is prima facie impossible to have a decryption algorithm that only works when accompanied by a valid warrant.

So that's it: there's actually no way to allow the FBI to decrypt an iPhones without also assuming hackers will (perhaps after a delay before a leak/weakness is discovered), you only get to choose "hackable" or "not hackable", there's no "hackable only by the honorable American government"

Also, it's already very hard to make things "not hackable" without deliberately introducing a certain way to hack it.

It seems like the discussion would need to be... what information that law enforcement wants to have classified as "limited" which the public finds acceptable to definitely be hackable by third parties who will inevitably figure out how to bypass the encryption. Even if it's just a corrupt FBI agent selling the key on the black market, all it takes is one time.

There might be some subset of things that fit this. Maybe a call record? But would the public be cool with the Russian Mafia definitely being able to get their GPS location and text message contents? Saved passwords? All your emails from the last decade? That's how I see the tradeoff and risk. There is little that the FBI would be interested in that criminals wouldn't be able to make a buck off of.

How do you prevent against evil law enforcement?

You may foolishly think that all law enforcement is perfect... it's hard to state what I think of this level of naiveté and stay within HN rules of polite commenting.

Pretty much every electronic secret the American government tried to keep gets stolen. F-35 plans, diplomatic cables, TSA’s special key, Forms SF-86 for clandestine employees...everything. It is unreasonable to expect the magic phone unlocker to not suffer a similar fate.

When one has read WaPo and watched the "Sunday conventional wisdom shows" for enough years, one gains amazing powers of self-delusion. For instance, one might be convinced that the litany of leaks you mention, and the thousands of leaks you didn't mention, were all intentional at some level. Maybe it was counterintelligence? Since you mention F-35, you might consider the fact that Lockheed made hundreds of millions of dollars "redesigning" the plane after the Chinese got all the original designs. If you wait to ask until late enough at night, some of these mooks will tell you that Snowden was some sort of 5-D chess maneuver! After one's brain has deteriorated to such an extent, why wouldn't one believe in FBI crypto magic?

He's not blaming anyone; he's saying it was stolen.

Yes 'JumpCrisscross and I are in fairly complete agreement on this issue. The counter-argument I offered has always amused me when I've seen it. I reproduced it in the hope that it would amuse you as well; sorry humor is difficult.

> "Idea: Make brute force key recovery possible but very expensive"

My eyes glazed over. Quantum computing isn't a fantasy realm, and non-quantum processors are still improving.

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