Ask HN: What is a non-developer to do?

You must read sivers.org - Derek Sivers is a musician turned entrepreneur who became a programmer too and he has great advice on many issues you speak of.

First, check out the following on finding your passion: http://sivers.org/passion

Next read this article about taking that big step towards your dreams (its one of my favorite): http://sivers.org/loss

If you find yourself wanting to get into the tech startup route but despair about not being a programmer, the following is excellent advice on how to turn your idea into a blueprint for a programmer and also (I think) great advice on how to become a product guy: http://sivers.org/how2hire

Thanks a lot for the links! I did read some cool stuff from Sivers before but I missed the articles you linked

Can you sell? A lot of people with business degrees can't or won't-- but some can.

Non-geeks can be good at selling, designing, SEO, SEM, PR, finance, copywriting etc.

I'd suggest taking two steps. 1) Try to move yourself nearby startups (if that's really your thing). This can be in Spain-- just spend time at whatever geeky meetups you can find and start batting around ideas. And 2) Start trying to get smart about some of those non-geek skills that are valuable in a small software company. Optional: 3) Learn to code. Most startup coding is just about form fields and databases-- not algorithms.

Definitely great advice!

No I cannot sell, usually this is what partners do in my company. I only interact with the clients after the initial sale was done. The closest I get to selling is in drafting the request for proposal (a doc where you tell them how you want to solve their problem/need) for the specific client.

Related question: WILL you sell or would you hate it? Sales is definitely a skill, but a learnable one (especially if you have solid biz/people/negotiation skills and a willingness to hear the word "No" a lot. ;-) )

Of course I am willing! As long as I believe in what I am selling I think it would be a great challenge to get my point through

Where is the like button for this reply?

Yeah, im a non-dev person but I am very much into selling, SEO, SEM, PR, design and creativity.

My suggestion, find a good hacker friend and build a strong relationship not around the startup but you both guys. Eventually something awesome will come up and you will be able to help maybe at financing or PR.

Suggestion 2. Dont buy "hacker's BS smoke". Get adviced.

Suggestion 3. Not exactly sure if you need to code tho. Just keep getting better at what you do and you will learn a lot just "on the go"

Suerte compañero. Saludos de Paraguay.

The start-up scene in Spain is very small. I recommend you to read Loogic, a blog about start ups in Spain.

If you dont like what you are doing, don't do it. Find something that motivates you.

In my opinion you should learn at least some basics skills about planning in technology/engineering. Learn what is the Waterfall model, what is Toyotism, what is Agile software development, scrum, Kaban ... there are many things that you can learn, but first things first. What are you interested in?

Anyway, my very best advice. Try to crash in a place where they really know what they are doing. Try to work with great and smart people, even if you earn less money. "Be the worts", that will make every day a challenge.

Will you consider relocate?

Thanks for the blog, will add it to my list of morning reading. I do read a lot, I love it! Apart from web reading I also read books, non fiction mainly - I recently read hackers&paints, 4 steps to epiphany, presentation zen, back of a napkin...I love reading stuff that makes me better at work. What I do not like is the lack of flexibility to try new stuff at work.

The interested part is what bothers me. I cannot seem to find an answer to that even though I spent countless nights trying to figure it out. I like reading, watching movies, going to the gym, dancing, skydiving....heck, I have loads of interests! But hey, can you make a living out of reading books that you like and dancing?

I moved away from my country of origin at 17, lived in 4 different countries and I fluently speak 4 languages. Relocating is not a problem at all.

You are a pretty smart guy.

It seems to me you would be happier with another job that allows you more "free time" to find something pursuable (some idea) that you can get passionate about.

You are working 11 hour days. I'm sure when you come home in the evening, you really don't want to teach yourself to write code before you pass out, all the while torturing your mind to find some passionate interest to pursue.

I recommend finding a job where you can have more free time, even with a paycut.

PS: Since you are making a decent bit of money, and can speak 4 languages, find a successfull website in one language/country, and you can create a similair site in the same/other country using the other language. You can hire contractors to build the necessary components, and should be able to do this without quitting your job. You manage the content in the language of your choice.

You also would have an edge in affiliate marketing for these other languages.

Can any other HN readers comment about their experiences with Google AdSense/Affiliate Marketing in other (non-US) countries/languages? or US non-english?

That is a question that I ask me every week. Actually I ask myself two questions?

- How can I identify products that can be adapted to a different culture?

- How can I replicate a successful business model in a different environment/country?

I lived for a while in Miami, and I succeed a couple of times taking a project that I like, I revamped it a little bit to target the US latino market. I am trying to do the same thing in Denmark now, but I am failing all the time.

Toyotism? Do you mean kaizen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

Also, did you mean Kanban? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanban

Yes, you are right. Toyotism is just another way to say kaizen, is the way I learned in the first place, so I keep using it all the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotism

Kaban => Kanban

I wrote an article on this subject:

http://spencerfry.com/whats-a-non-programmer-to-do

It was spawned from a HN post:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=779378

Those are evergreen classics, and belong in a future Hacker Monthly, as well.

Awesome, awesome stuff. Definitely the inspiration for my first blog post. Coincidentally, I just wrote it yesterday :)

http://austinbrandt.posterous.com/hustlin-aint-easy-part-1

You havea couple of skills that are really useful for startups: you know how to research a topic, you probably know how to schmooze with people, you know how to put together a decent presentation & you know how to write well. Those are all tasks that are terrible time-sinks for developers in a startup. My tip:

Learn how to create a distraction-free environment for developers by taking over all of these distracting tasks that nevertheless need to be done.

Hell, maybe there's even a business right there: become a VA for developers so that they can focus on code. Expect to lower your rates though ;-)

Are you hiring or know someone who is?! I appreciate your attitude, but it seems startups give us more business-focused people the cold shoulder. Or maybe I haven't found the right one ;)

Writing presentations and schmoozing are not hire-able skills for a startup.

However, if you can get startupX paying clients for their product, that is a hireable skill.

If said schmoozing can get you press, investment or blogging attention then I'd say that's valuable. But sure, paying customers are the best!

Edited to add: a traditional powerpoint presentation may not be valuable, but if you can create a good video, slideshow or pdf and make it generate traffic to your website, that's valuable.

I'll be honest and admit that a few months ago I would have given you the cold shoulder too. I just found an amazing co-founder who is the king of schmooze & I've come to appreciate the power of a good old rolodex.

I come from a similar situation and faced similar challenges, especially after trying to launch a web startup with no financing and no developers on board. It failed. I'm determined to stay in tech, so here's some of my (occasionally conflicting) thoughts.

1) You call yourself a business guy, but are you a product guy? If you're a product guy -- if you can understand the soul of a product and how it interacts with people -- that can be inherently valuable. In my experience, most people I've met may be "tech" or "business", but they're not product people.

2) Get an internship. Beg. Show up, prove why you're valuable, send unsolicited resumes with advice and biz dev/product suggestions. Be humble, but not too much. Work for free for a couple months, or at minimum wage or whatever is legal. Just get your foot in the door.

3) Read. The Elements of User Experience (http://amzn.to/aFNjSn), The Mythical Man Month (http://amzn.to/cFLDlB) -- these are just to get you started. Learning to code a little bit will be good as well. The point is not to become an expert developer, but to learn how developers think. Think of your reading as travel literature and learn about different cultures.

4) Look for non-sexy opportunities. Twitter, FB, 4SQ, Zynga etc., get all the hype, but there's tons of need for software development and product design in what I call the "iceberg industries." The trucking industry brings in $250 billion dollars in revenue every year. That's almost twice the size of the airline industry and yet a typical website of theirs looks like this: http://www.highwayfreight.com/index.php

5) Think about CPG (even though it's not tech, it still can be a startup). It's a risky, tough move and faces lots of market forces, but can be incredibly lucrative. You could find a small local product that you believe in, invest some cash to get equity, and try to make them big. As a consultant, your skills may be valuable because the problems in these types of entrepreneurial efforts are operational problems, not innovation problems.

6) Don't worry too much about the idea or where you're working right now: your goal is to build professional and personal credibility. Give away your great ideas. Most people who have them don't tend to have just one.

7) Don't worry about home runs. Most entrepreneurs I know have small lifestyle businesses and love their companies no matter the size. It's kinda like having a kid. S/he's probably not going to grow up to be president, but you're going to love 'em anyway.

If you love products, being a product guy is indeed very valuable. Learning to work with developers is very valuable too, but that's much easier if you learn developing yourself first.

Also: what is CPG?

Consumer packaged goods.

It's interesting that you imply http://www.highwayfreight.com/index.php is bad design, when you consider the design of the website you're typing into. :)

My point is, you have to find actual opportunities. A shiny website may not be one, but you might manage to convince yourself that you could convince others to see that a new website is a necessity, or even very valuable.

I should have been more clear. My point is not that it's a bad design per se; as you point out HN isn't the best designed site in the world either. My point is more that these industries are old, established industries that haven't yet built up innovative approaches (whether from the consumer side or the business side) to their business models.

I used trucking because I did some research on the industry and found that they have a fair amount of logistical innovation but still have major inefficiencies in the way that their customers book business. It's not the perfect example. But I think my point stands.

My point was that your fundamental assumption is wrong. HN has a fantastic design. I believe the trucking site is just as effective.

Interesting. I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you w/r/t HN, because the UX of HN is great, though at this point we may be disagreeing definitionally over "design."

As for the trucking website, I would completely disagree for the following reasons:

1) You have to receive a quote over email. Why? Either their systems are built that way, which is ridiculous, or they require a human to look up values and quote a price, which at this point is also ridiculous.

2) The form design is terrible. Eye movement/focus is all over the place.

3) There's absolutely no reason to use this company vs. other companies based on their home page. What's their selling point? They have the same boilerplate as everyone else.

4) Amateur hour: They misformat their own phone number: "(256) 852-553 5." That nav bar. That frequent shipper link.

Ah. This is a pretty interesting discussion, I think, so let's try to figure it out.

One of my points -- disregarding whether the concept of quoting a price is good or not -- is that there isn't anything fundamentally wrong about this form: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/315/random_pics/free_quote_form.png

They provide a phone number, office hours, and a satisfaction assurance.

About whether manually quoting prices is a good idea or not... I think overall it facilitates the sales process, not harms it. It's a fact of the industry, for one. For two, communicating verbally is much more engaging than via the internet. It seems like you would attract more customers in this instance, unless your company did something fundamentally differently from the competition.

) Amateur hour: They misformat their own phone number: "(256) 852-553 5." That nav bar. That frequent shipper link.

But does that really matter? What matters is that they provide a specialized service to move an item from point A to point B. Sure, an extra space is a typo, but not a serious one.

I'm really not trying to be nitpicky. I'm trying to point out that people often make fundamentally wrong assumptions. And that will have a direct negative impact when deciding what to spend time on, which is one of the most precious resources.

...there isn't anything fundamentally wrong about this form"

I think the only way to definitively prove either of my points is with A/B testing, etc. But one way I can try to make my argument is to look at forms from other successful companies. Almost every single long web form I've seen or filled out goes down where there is a clear sequential order. Think about long forms on SurveyMonkey or the product selection form on any computer manufacturing website. The main exceptions seem to be for very short forms (~4 fields).

They provide a phone number, office hours, and a satisfaction assurance.

None of that is different from the competition.

About whether manually quoting prices is a good idea or not... I think overall it facilitates the sales process, not harms it. It's a fact of the industry, for one.

There may very well be good, or more accurately, rational, reasons for manually quoting prices but the ones that I can think of (there's human judgement involved, etc.) are all business opportunities. From a buyer/consumer perspective, this pricing uncertainty and lack of information can be confusing and even bad. Imagine having to do this for airline prices, etc. Even FedEx will quote you a price for a similar service (and they use vertical forms: http://at.fedex.com/QX58q).

An aside: whenever I hear something along the lines of "a fact of the industry" I usually smell money. That doesn't mean I know how to get it, but it's somewhere out there.

But does that really matter?

Absolutely. This is not an industry where there are one or two or three players. There are dozens of competitors and if I'm entrusting my business -- and goods worth thousands and thousands of dollars -- I'm going with the "most professional" people. I may pay more for it, though I don't want to. I'm not going to go with the firm that has so little attention to detail that they can't correct typos on a website that has likely been around for years. The fact that they didn't even notice bugs the crap out of me.

Here's a way to test this, if you'd be interested: Take screenshots of this site and I'll pick another site that I think is better designed but that offers the same services. We ask people to pick one based purely on sight. Some third party has to be willing to set up the survey though and email it to some of his or her friends to ensure impartial results.

I'm really not trying to be nitpicky.

I don't think this is a bad thing. I think if you're really passionate about this stuff you care about it to the core or it's not worth caring at all.

That trucking website seems more usable than most airline websites.

Ha, yeah I completely agree. I wish I'd picked a different example.

The Paul Graham article "How to Do What You Love" has some tips in it that you might find useful.

http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html

If you have the chance, try and attend a hack weekend like http//:launch48.com . You will meet lots of people who are doing are interested in doing startups. You will get a healthy overview of what it takes in one short weekend. 2. Try and get involved in a startup project even if it is for fun and I promise you that it will jump start something in you.

With your skills (common sense) you could do learn HTML, UX and learn to create mockups e.t.c.

The most important thing you can do now is to take action.

best of luck man

Thanks a lot for the advice, sounds like an interesting start

Buenos dias! I'm a PR professional toiling in the American Midwest after leaving the San Francisco Bay Area for family reasons. My plan, in another couple of years, is to leave the job I'm working at now for the startup industry.

I'm not a geek. I have dabbled some with Python, like reading the occasional "hard" CS article linked from HN, love startup culture, love technology, etc. I'm not a hacker though. Most my good friends are, however.

My plan, which could easily apply to you goes a little like this.

Work here in the midwest for another couple of years while the family situation resolves itself. Do research on which of the big American tech hubs (Austin, Boston, NYC, Silicon Valley, etc.) are looking the most active in terms of hiring. Move to that place and start seeking a job -- as a PR professional. Now, granted, by the time a startup is seeking a dedicated and experienced PR professional, they're beyond the "five guys working to hack together a product" stage. However, those are the kinds of people I want to work with, not 50-year-olds grinding out their remaining work years sitting in an office.

I cannot imagine working in a corporate environment for more than a couple years. Even less can I imagine living in the stagnating midwest (not even Chicago) for more than a couple years.

Develop a 3- or 5-year plan to get yourself out of the corporate doldrums. Be willing to move to where the beating heart of tech entrepreneurship is in your country/region. Gather as much experience as you can doing as many varied tasks within your area of expertise as possible. Learn sales, learn marketing, be active in social media, teach yourself some programming so you can at least participate in conversations by asking intelligent questions.

Startups need more people than just hackers once they have a product on their hands. No eres sin util in such an environment. Buena suerte!

As other people already said, you're underselling yourself. You have great skills and a great mind to even achieve more skills. If you're interested in the tech/web space and really interested in the creating part, why not learn programming? Yes, it takes time, yes it can be hard, but it can also be fulfilling. I'm a business guy myself, although I study Electrical Engineering and I'm currently trying to learn Ruby on Rails. Frameworks like Rails or platforms like Titanium (www.appcelerator.com) make it easy for non-programming people to learn the basics (be it Ruby, JS, HTML or CSS) and actually create something. I did an online tutorial on JavaScript, after that I dived into Titanium and tried to re-implement an example. After a few days and some setbacks, my iPhone app was 90% done. As I said, if it's creating in the tech world, you're interested in, don't worry be crappy and learn a lot along the way! :) What do you have to lose?

I'm sort of in your situation, although I do have some background in programming from college years. I also did the consulting thing before getting my MBA. That said, I'm looking for product management positions, and think that they might be a good fit for you too.

In theory, product managers should be able to take care of all the business matters to free the developers to concentrate on the code. Good product managers would be capable of defining requirements, deciding which features for which release, doing some level of marketing and analytics, etc. Your business and consulting background would definitely be a good fit for these kinds of activities.

tl;dr - look for product management positions.

I only have 2 years of work experience, I highly doubt I am qualified enough to work as a product manager :)

If your business experience is in talking with and listening to other people, it is valuable. If you know about marketing or sales, it is valuable.

Instead of worrying about what to do, worry about how to meet people that are also interested in building things. The rest follows from there.

If you've got friends to explore with, the question becomes "what do we do?" instead of "what do I do?" and it's a more powerful mental place to start from. Still scary but not such an overwhelming existential question.

Once you've got exposure to the world you want to be in, you'll find your place. In the mean time, make sure you're saving money so you're capable of doing something about the opportunity you find, once you find it.

- stop relying on advice given by anyone not where you want to be

- the amount of revenue a business makes is based on the amount of value it is able to generate for other people. focus yourself on generating value, whether it is directly for consumers/businesses are a business, or as a proxy working for a business and delivering value through the business.

A business cannot survive without generating value. Focus on the core of business and work from there. Figure out ways you can most effectively deliver value, then start from there.

If you're in a place to make big $ w/o doing anything creative, you're in a privileged position in life. Most people are making just a little $ w/o doing anything creative or having any meaning in their life.

Doing anything that matters is a lot of work with just a slight sliver of reward. If you're in a position to make it as a rent-seeker, I say milk it for what it's worth.

Those are exactly my fathers words. I have definitely thought about this option, my fear is that I will get to 35 without having done anything that I care about in life.

Well, I was being about 50% sarcastic there. Personally I've been forced into entrepreneurship, somewhere around 37, because I realized my career wasn't going to go anywhere (in terms of either doing work I could be proud of or making $) unless I made some move.

At the age of 25, I just didn't have that sense of urgency.

You're underselling yourself massively here. You are in the minority - you can't move for tripping over developers. I can't get a decent sales/marketing/ops guy for blood nor money. Find a startup that you believe in and just approach the people behind it - send them a couple of ideas for how you'd contribute and I'll bet they're interested.

The first step is knowing that you want to make a change, kudos on that! Great questions and some good answers here, look forward to reading more. As someone light on the programming side, always interested in responses on this kind of question. Especially answers that go beyond, "hey, go learn to program more."

You really have a lot to contribute to a start up. I believe that each person in a startup should bring skills to the table to help it grow. You being with a business background could help create marketing plans, and secure funding for the start up. There's sooo much you can do!

Hell, I would love to have you on my team =D

You need to find something that interests you and that you can care about. When you do, find a company that does it and try to work for them. If there isn't a company, make one. Obviously this is easier said than done, but it always takes some extra effort to get out of a rut.

Best of luck!

"So my question is, how can I get out of this vicious circle of unfulfilling work 9-20 (officially its 9-5 by I never get out of the office before 20) and do something that I care about?"

Find something you care about. Start doing it.

Why do you have to make it harder than that?

Sounds easy. Finding something that you care about and that you can actually contribute to is the hard part.

It's deceptively simple; focus only on what's fun and interesting. No more analysis needed.

Leverage your current position to acquire new skills. Continue to acquire skills until you feel moderately useful, then repost this question and list the skills you have acquired, and the quality of advice will improve.

It sounds to me like you do not like doing work for others that doesn't fit a personal passion. If this is the case then I think you will be able to solve your problem by finding something you are passionate about, thinking of the problems related to it, and coming up with a solution.

There are manta business ideas that do not require a room of engineers. I'm an engineer and have many ideas, but the best method for finding the right one to work on for me is to add artficial constraints.

Take your constraints and turn them into a filter for ideas.

One of the best ideas vie had in weeks turned out to be an online business that requires only 2 pages on a website and an agreement. No real engineering work and I could do it in a weekend.

But what is critical about that idea is that it addesses a problem in an area that I'm passionate about in a very profitable and scalable way.

So, what are your constraints? - you have a good job, no need to give that up right now sovfind something you can do two days a week, at least until it gets off the ground. - you're not an engineer.... So either learn how to program- which you can do if you want. You mitt never be as good as a natural, but don't let that stop you. -- or find something that needs little engineering thatbp you can either get a friend or outsource or stumble thru yourself. - you know a lot about business and your in Spain. What will the business community need in spain in the next decade?

Or find some other passion -- running, whatever. The most economical unsound hobbies still provide avenues for businesses even if it is making products to help other hobbyists.

You have access to a lot of stats... Are there things there that people don't generally know or realize? Trends to be exploited?

You are on the right track. Just dedicate yourself and look for the business that fits your situation. What makes it a startup is the business being a powder keg. But if you end up with a lifestyle business the first time out, don't worry, you will learn so much doing it that you'll wonder why you paid for and MBA!

You can always sell a lifestyle business to any umber of people whethe real startup idea comes around... Or take your time and find a powder keg you can light.

Either way, put your weekends into it, make it your passion, and quit your regular job when you're earning more from the side job than the regular one.