Ask Hacker News: How do I become less rude, more polite, and "groomed"? | Hacker News Reader

Ask Hacker News: How do I become less rude, more polite, and "groomed"?

18 pointsalittlerude35 comments

I have a "manners problem". I'm impolite. For all of my life, I have been smart enough such that this hasn't been a truly big deal. But it's now hurting my business. Some might say: I don't have fuck you money, but I say "fuck you" (not exactly, it's more like I am rudely curt and dismissive of people and I tread with a very serious sort of arrogance and assumed sense of superiority).

I hope that somebody on this forum has been through a similar period of frustration, leading to growth, and will share some "lessons learned" from the past.

Thank you.

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First off, realize that you're not that smart. From my experience, people that say things like, "I have been smart enough such that [being a jerk] hasn't been a truly big deal" aren't usually the rocket scientists they think they are. Treat everyone you meet like they have something to offer -- because often it's true, and when it's not well, it's not like being a nice person really costs you all that much.

If you really think that you're the smartest person around either 1) you're not putting yourself in an interesting enough environment to meet fascinatingly smart people or 2) you're wrong.

Please don't criticize me. That's not why i posted this. i posted this because I would bet that Someone here has dealt with this Exact issue in the past and they know how to deal With it.

Not criticizing, just saying: 1) humble pie 2) be nice. :) It's easy, try it.

Of course you were criticising. You just said he is not smart, in a harsh tone, and maybe even imply that he is stupid.

While all those things might be true, a smart person would realise early on that being nice pays off and not being nice has consequences, he seems to have realised that too, so no point picking at something which is hardly relevant to what he enquired.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this response might suggest that you need to work on getting inside the mind of the person you are interacting with.

I don't know how to teach that, other than to say really imagine as much as you can that you ARE that person, and see what their perspective is like. It will soften how you talk to them and make it easier to interact constructively or at least not abrasively.

You know how you're feeling right now? A bit wounded, because somebody was (perhaps) a bit harsher in their reply then they needed to be, even though they were absolutely correct?

That's how others (may) experience it when you're "a little rude".

Remember this feeling.

It's been said that good manners consist of small sacrifices.

As a technical person/hacker, these sacrifices can feel unnecessary or wasteful.

But as an experiment, try this.

Go out of your way to be as courteous as you possibly can.

Listen far more than you talk. Hold the door open for people. Let someone go in front of you in a line. Try saying "Good point, I think you're right actually. I was wrong." (when you realise you're wrong). Show someone respect and courtesy by actively listening to everything they're saying - nod your head, make verbal acknowledgements, etc. Apologise if you think you might have upset someone - "I'm sorry, that was insensitive of me. Let me try again." Ask people's permission to do things - "Do you mind if I grab a cup of tea?" "Do you mind if I come back in 15 minutes?" Etc.

In short, courtesy and humility.

You'll be pleasantly surprised at how people respond to you. Build on the momentum you create.

If people see that you're courteous and trying to do the right thing, they'll give you space to make a mistake here or there.

If people think you're an asshole, they obviously won't give you the same benefit of the doubt.

Oh and read How to Win Friends and Influence People.

+1 for How to Win Friends and Influence People. Though I am not really into self help books and alikes, that is definitely a must read.

You asked not to be criticised in one of your replies. You want to know how to be less rude, not just take flak, right? The trouble is that rudeness/arrogance is a problem that requires humility to overcome, and gaining humility involves accepting criticism either from other people, or yourself.

If it was coming from yourself, you wouldn't be here asking. You have the choice of accepting criticism, or not being helped - there are no shortcuts.

Long story short - you're a bit of a prick, and you need to get over it if your request here is genuine, ie, not just a pantomime designed to fool yourself into thinking that "at least you're trying", as I suspect it might be. Ask yourself that first.

(As you may have noticed, I'm a prick too... I just don't care. I see myself as I see all people - monkeys in shoes, who somehow think that they're so much more. That I'm a prick is a trivial detail in the wider scope of the fact that all of humanity is, collectively, a prick too.)

Read How to Win Friends and Influence People. That really helped give me a framework for thinking about how to be nice. The two things I've seen work for other ego/problem people is having kids or managing people. But that seems a little bit more drastic. I say start with the book. It's got a cheesy title, but the mindset is very pragmatic.

Seconded. This book was great and I probably wouldn't have bothered with it if Warren Buffett didn't mention that it changed his life.

I used to be pretty rude/arrogant. I was quick to judge/dismiss people based on only a few actions. And I fixed it, though this post will be very direct and (some will think) harsh.

But before I get to how I fixed it, I want to point out something very important. You are not that smart. Something like 90% of people think they are above average. Nearly half of them are wrong. You're not special. But even if you are, NO ONE is so <anything> that their behavior is overlooked. I once saw a guy in wheelchair get punched out because he was a dick. The dude that punched him was thanked afterwords by a lot of people.

Don't think that because you believe yourself smart, others will a) even recognize that you're smart (You don't recognize that they are smart, after all, and they most likely think they are above average) b) overlook your shortcomings because you believe you're smart.

I don't think you're smart. If you were, you would have realized that it is more desirable to be courteous rather than curt a long time before it started affecting your business.

Here is how I fixed my problem... I realized that just because something appears to be the most efficient way to do something (in my mind), doesn't mean that it is in the real world. This is the major premise needed in changing your behavior. It really is that simple. What I started to notice was that people have experience in a lot of things that I don't have experience in. Anyone will tell you that in order to accomplish something you need to stop thinking about stuff and actually do it. The value of that is learning how things happen in the real world rather than in your mind. People know things you don't know. People can conceive things you can't.

One other thing to consider: Most people don't have the chip on their shoulder that you seem to have (though correct me if I'm wrong). Most people aren't trying to convince you of how smart they are. So assume that because people don't use big words or try to sound impressive that they are of a dull mind.

- Work for a big corporate company which is an old boys club and requires you to become a 'yes' man in order to be noticed and achieve anything.

- What's the opposite of ego? Humility. Be a humble guy - hang around with people who are experts in subject areas that you know nothing about - and only talk about those subject areas

- You mention being smart. Are you good at practical things like DIY, fixing your car etc? If not, find someone / some people who are good at that and then do something with them and notice how lame you are.

- Volunteer at a charity - nothing builds humility in my opinion than when you serve people less well off / disadvantaged compared to you. Once you also talk and listen to lots of folk you then realise that they're just as smart as you, they just haven't had the same opportunities as you and that makes you profoundly grateful.

Noticed something that I don't think anyone else pointed out: you provide a causative link between a consequence of your behavior and your new-found desire to change it: it's hurting your business. I note this because most of the replies are approaching the question as though the source is a lack of empathy or an abundance of ego. While both of those seem, on the face of things to be true, they're really very broad, shoot-at-phantoms problems.

But one might approach the query from a different direction - you're terrible self-centered. Not in terms of ego, although you seem to have that in spades. Rather, this wasn't a problem for you until it impacted your own goals, probably pecuniary in nature. In short, you've concluded that OVERTLY being a dick doesn't pay. Like really doesn't PAY (business). But you clearly have a certain commitment to COVERTLY continuing to cleave to a sense of superiority, or else you wouldn't have tried to cling to any sort of justification for your past and present behavior.

In some ways, I think I can relate to what you're going through, because I used to be quite curt, and I'm still not what the average person would consider to be warm and fuzzy. I'd like to say that the answer for you is to form a rational basis for a new personality. But of course, that's like saying that the answer is to form a rational basis for the existence of the tooth fairy.

Truth is, my pointy parts and sharp edges didn't dull at all until I really got the crap kicked out of me in life a few times. There was a brilliant book (name escapes me, 1950s I think) that described the turning point for an alcoholic by saying something like, "The chronic alcohol abuser will continue to degenerate until he concludes to his own satisfaction that the pain of continuing to drink now sufficiently outweighs the pain of stopping."

I think you're on that path right now, personality-wise. You've noticed that there are certain costs to continue to be the way you are. Unfortunately, those costs are not nearly as high as the costs of changing, in your mind. Therefore, it is presently more valuable to you to stay as you are. When the reverse is true, it will become patently obvious what there is for you to do to change your behavior, as you actually already know approximately how to do it if you are even half as smart as I think you imagine yourself to be.

You will, as a matter of self-regulating, automatically begin asking yourself, "How will I come off if I say what I'm thinking? Is there a more responsible way of saying it? Is there even value in saying it at all?" I think you know that, though. I imagine you were hoping for something else.

Good luck!

Empathy is important. When you deal with someone, try really, really hard to see where they're coming from. It will help you to respond to them in a sensible way. Pretend you are them.

This isn't to say you should be patronizing, walking around with a smile and piling undeserved politeness on everyone you meet (especially if they're rude to you); in fact, I hate walking into a store and being treated this way by employees, because I never find it sincere. Be real, but be patient.

I have always read that the first step to being nice is to realize you aren't that smart and .....

This did not work for me. Life teaches you that you are smart. While young you are segregated and ranked according to academic ability so its difficult to ignore that sometimes you are much more intelligent than the avg person.

Trying to not be offensive is probably less important than trying to get somebody to like you. At least in your mind that should be your only goal and I think it helps you focus on things you can do fairly easily to build relationships. There are many ways to do this but you should be playing to your strengths. For my first experiences in an office I learned to like sports. You'd be surprised how many relationships with men of any age can be smoothed over by asking if they saw the game from the night before and exchanging a simple opinion. Note - if you pick a team make sure its the local one. Being a sox fan in nyc will not win you friends.

As I dealt with more people of all types I found that how much I personally liked people was not always directly related to their intelligence. Once you hit that point you should start to understand humility.

Forget about you. Set aside your skills, your intelligence, the money you earn or the prospects you have.

Pick up on a different kind of intelligence. Social intelligence. Emotional intelligence. Learn body language. Train yourself to observe people.

Talk about the person; not about you. Open conversations with lines such as "How can I help you?" "How are you?" and comments intended to make the first main topic of conversation the person you are speaking to.

The order of conversations should be: The person you are speaking to, then some neutral third party topic that is possible of mutual interest, then finally you can open up the conversation about you - but hesitantly, as if it were an afterthought.

Start with the above. I leave the acquisition of further experience and refinement of your social tool use to you.

Force yourself to pause before each statement when speaking to someone. During that pause, ask yourself if there is a more positive and polite way to say what you're going to say. The trick is remembering to pause.

With that said, you really need to realize that being smart doesn't make you better. We all have our talents and I imagine that you are quite bad at a lot of things, like dealing with other people. Appreciate your talents, but have respect for people who don't share them.

Also, as I've said before (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1448891), to quote Socrates, "It is a wise man who knows that he knows nothing.".

Most probably you're indeed smart guy and you're smarter than majority of people around you. Many smart people notice their smartness. I have the same problem as you and these are my lessons learned: 1) you have to deal correctly with your smartness. It's like physically strong person should correctly use his power when dealing with others. Use it when it's necessary. If you're really smart - you know when it's necessary. 2) Find people smarter than you. You may have hard time learning from them but they'll make you better. 3)Do something good and significant. Really good and really significant. That's what smart people are for.

There are many many ways of being "smart" and I've found most people are smart in at least one way or another. Either they are socially smart, or they are very fast to learn something or they are very good at thinking deeply to work out a complex issue. Maybe they just have a great memory.

It sounds like you are admitting to being socially dumb which is a good thing, admitting it is the first step to improvement.

Keep your eye out for other people around you who are socially smart and try and learn from them. Imitation is the our most basic learning strategy and can work well as a starting point.

Don't assume they know what you are talking about. I've worked with medical doctors and lawyers who are super smart and make hundreds of dollars an hour. If I were rude to them, they would work with someone else.

Our experience is different. I know bits and bytes like the back of my hand. They know their areas just as well. Respect that and them and they will love you.

Talk down to them or treat them rudely and they'll work with someone else.

Making those sorts of changes to your personality is very very hard. My best advice would be to have someone to act as a screen between you and your customers. If you can find someone who is both polite and can handle your rudeness, make them deal with all customer relations situations. Your customers will get a far better experience, you will have to spend less time dealing with customers and everybody wins.

What are you getting out of your current behavior?

Is that behavior something you want to bring to the current context?

If not, stop. If you can't think of anything better, then just remain silent. (Silence is easier than trying to generate something you feel is "inauthentic".)

If the "smart ass" ;-) reaction is not producing a result you like, why would you continue to employ it?

As others have pointed out, there's always more to learn (speaking generally). You may not know what that is, at the outset of an encounter / getting to know someone, but by remaining inoffensive and observant, you have a better chance of finding out. For example, there are some people who can barely add three digit numbers, but who are brilliant -- somehow or other -- at that overused term "social networking". I guess this example is a bit stereo-typical; nonetheless, it exists. There are others.

Don't spend excessive time on those who really don't interest you. However, contrary perhaps to initial expectations, being overtly offensive is not necessarily conducive to this. You piss them off, and if this is e.g. at work, you have to spend more and more time dealing with the fallout. Other people you do need or even want to interact with become more reserved or distant or require smoothing over because your interactions put them on edge or on guard.

Maybe a martial arts metaphor. If you fight stupidity directly with your own energy, you get stuck and expend a lot in direct effort. If you turn a bit and let it slide on by, you are free to move on to better things, at the same time leaving the other party unaware of what has just happened.

Finally, make sure your own house is (really) in order. In general, the better one feels about oneself, the less inclination to be defensive ("fuck you" is a defensive statement). And a tip: Don't conflate having X with feeling good about oneself. It's more about doing than having.

(I'll add that people learn better by example than through words. Meaning that verbal responses aren't that useful in addressing problems -- say, ignorance -- anyway. Doing things the right way shows a better way to those capable of getting a clue. As for those who can't get it, make sure your business doesn't depend on them.

And when your business is suffering, keep in mind that others are applying the same to you. They may not be investing a lot of energy telling you what your problem is; they are busy moving on.)

Hmm...

Nope, never had your problem. I find it quite illogical to be rude. I'm assertive but never find it needful to be rude.

I consider from my perspective if I would like anybody say or do what I did.

A simple rule for dealing with people. (Some caveat exist but generally works)

Don't be a dick, just be a good person. Be someone worthy of someone's love.

Humility.

Much can be said about humility, and I wish I had learned it sooner. I wish the school system had a way to reward it better than promoting the absence it. Gosh, I was such a dick...

The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions. -Confucius

I have often wished I had time to cultivate modesty. But I am too busy thinking about myself. --Edith Sitwell

I agree with what nostromo said and wish to add to that based off of my own life experience (and personality).

My personality tends toward the reserved side of things (I'm an INTJ if that helps at all) and especially so when I'm focused on something; a lot of people have a hard time with me when they first meet me, generally because I'm very intense. I also have another side of me, a really goofy and playful side - I've noticed most people that don't retreat deep into their own psyche's on a regular basis only mesh well with other butterflies - people love quirky and goofy personality, frisky is a good word too. Cultivate your quirky, playful side and people will have an easier time of caring less about your retracted side.

Don't go changing yourself because people don't "get you". Though, there is something to be said for being approachable and fun enough that the kids want to play with you in the sandbox; all you have to do is bring out that playful, fun personality - even if your eccentricities make that "playful" side really odd or strange, people will still respond positively to it.

I had a rough journey going from being a complete recluse and introverted thinker to being the thing I am (a heavy thinker) to also allowing a fun and "I'm no longer afraid of what people think of me" state of mind. I prefer to hang at home and read, work on projects, or hack but I'm right at home when going out with a large group of friends whom aren't anywhere near being geeks or nerds. I'm also comfortable in my skin to interact with strangers, more so actually, than my super-extroverted girlfriend.

International travel/backpacking will also change that aspect of your personality a great deal, going through India alone forced me to make friends and exposed my psyche to so many things I couldn't even begin to outline what it did for me in a simple comment...

Grooming takes time, figure out what social niche you tend to roll with (hipster? geek? alt? fetish? burner? normal? the list goes on) and start looking people who epitomize those sub-cultures and look at how they dress, match things together, &c... It will come with time, effort, and actually going to the mall.

Hygiene (the other half of grooming) is more important than clothing, honestly. Shower every day and wash your armpits, groin, asscrack, and neck with soap and water (those areas in particular because many of your glands that produce body scents and odors are located in those areas). Use soap or body wash that smells good, if you want to feel like you're a refined urban dweller, get some home-made natural products (body salts with eucalyptus essential oils, &c...). Usually after soaping down, I use a sugar or salt scrub with essential oils in it - it makes your skin very smooth and you smell way better than when you use that Axe body wash crap (not to mention the nasty chemicals they put in it).

Keep your hair trimmed, and not just the stuff on your head!!!! This is so important for men. I'm a huge advocate of facial hair, but we start looking like bears when we let it get out of control, so keep it under control. I have a shaped beard, some men have full but trimmed beards. Some men shave it all, do what works for you but keep it sharp. This also goes for underarm hair, I shave mine, some dudes just trim it so they don't have "tufts" oozing out of their arms. I personally keep my arm and leg hair but shave my chest and stomach.

Wear deoderant! Put it on every day right after your shower. Use scented soaps, particularly, around your groin - mine emits a rather potent fragrance and go from "fragrant" to "icky crotch smell" in a matter of a few hot hours; whether you have potential lady action or not, humans have an uncanny ability to pick up on "invisible" or "barely noticeable" scents. When my girlfriend is on her period, more men hit on her (it's noticeable) even though you can't "smell" anything at the conscious level.

Exercise! Get your body in shape, and even build some muscle - it doesn't make you any less intellectual to have a build, it makes you healthier and more capable of using your brain. Not to mention people are naturally better disposed towards a person that takes care of their body.

There are many books out there on fashion, manners, and hygiene too. A book I liked was "Freakin' Fabulous" by Clinton Kelly - I highly recommend it. Also, take pointers from gay men, they really know how to groom themselves well.

that was kinda disturbing dude. On several levels. There are many things in there I don't want to know about you. I think you took the "groomed" thing a bit too literally.

Everyone is comfortable with different levels of grooming. I've been on multi-week survival trips and backpacking trips where there was no grooming (except the occasional river dunk) to be had. I also presently live in a dense urban city where grooming tends to be a standard, versus when I grew up on my parent's ranch - grooming was more of an "option".

Saying that someone's "preference" is disturbing is a strong indicator of your limited world view; there's nothing scary or icky about being well groomed, clean, and sharp. You can also never take it too literally! There are people out there that like to bleach their anus and I don't consider them disturbing even though that's something I don't find necessary for my own bodily care.

Either way, do what you do, I don't care :-)

groom: prepare; educate for a future role or function; "He is grooming his son to become his successor".

;)

It might just be an indication that you're not getting enough rest.

I wish I could say I'd seen someone make this transition, but I haven't. People tend to be the people they want to be.

If there's anything I'd offer as advice it's to find someone you'd want to emulate and try and be more like them because you'll at least have a benchmark to measure yourself against. To a degree a lot of social interaction is pure acting as most people never express their purest intentions, so it's even reasonable to include characters in movies as suitable examples.

When you brush someone the wrong way, you'll probably feel it in some sense later on. It comes back to you. Often the people who seem the most insignificant, the most beneath you, are the ones that can do the most damage. You piss off the valet and he might do something to car that you won't notice for a while. Get on the janitor's nerves and he'll screw with you in subtle ways. Piss off your waiter and, well, you don't want to know.

Some of the rich and influential take the opposite approach of most. They couldn't care less what some big executive has to say, they're just an obstacle to their success anyway, but the "little people" are the ones they dote on. The people at the bottom know a lot more than they let on, and have power they usually don't exercise. Treat them well and you'll get what you want, and the management will be powerless.

I had an employee once that was a hard worker, a clever guy, and reliable enough that we'd tolerate his "eccentricities", but these would always rub other people the wrong way.

He had an unusual talent for engaging people where he could strike up a conversation with nearly anyone he met, but he also had the unfortunate ability to turn one of these surprisingly lively conversations into dead silence within the span of ten minutes. He'd commit a faux-pas so severe people would sometimes just leave without saying another word.

I'd try and explain to him that while he's entitled to the opinion that "it's just how I am" that it will hold him back. For example, I'd ask if he were in charge of hiring and there were two candidates, one rough, abrasive, a real renegade who told you whatever he was thinking, and another who was no-nonsense, a team player, sociable and friendly, and both were exactly as experience and skilled, then who would you pick? He'd say "the best one", which is a non-answer.

He quit a few times, and later, after a lot of internal grumbling, he got fired. People were tired of having to keep him contained, out of sight, or coach him constantly on "things we're not going to say in meetings again".

I've tried to deconstruct why he was in such a state. He came from a small town, the kind with a single stop-light and only one tiny high school. It's not hard to be "the smartest kid in town" in an environment like that, but when you go to a big city it's a whole different deal. Small towns are often stripped of their brightest, those with aspirations often moving to "the city" to pursue a higher education or a better career, it's not a good place to judge your relative talent.

On top of that, people are "smart" in different ways and experience, including education, can play a huge role in how effectively smart you really are. I know a lot of very intelligent people that are suffering from a severe lack of common sense wisdom and with marginal social skills.

Being intelligent isn't a license to be a dick, just as being famous or rich is.

My advice is this. No one here can help you. They will say things, you might think ohh that makes sense, yeah I should do that, but those are just thoughts.

Habit is as much biological as mental. Pavlov showed for example a century back or so conditional behaviour and cue conditioning and all that. So, the way to fight nature is to obey her.

It is too easy to come here and ask others, but thinking for yourself is not that hard. Just take your time to look at the ceiling and think for a bit and see what you come up with. If you do come up with anything, this time you actually gain understanding and not just knowledge.

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