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Comment by Aloha | Hacker News Reader

The copyright for Mickey Mouse will never expire so long as they keep making new art of Mickey Mouse - the copyright for the earliest Mickey Mouse cartoon however will expire in 2023.

Something else, while someone could repackage the earliest Mickey Mouse shorts once the copyrights expire, it is unlikely that someone could make new Mickey Mouse related stories, because of trademark and other issues - beyond that, 1923 mickey and 2017 mickey only have a passing resemblance.

http://createwebquest.com/sites/default/files/images/mickeym...

What we identify (as in most consumers of mickey related cartoons) identify as mickey mouse - didn't exist until fantasia in 1940. So long as WDC continues to make artwork with that character in it, and continues to keep up the trademark - the character itself will never leave copyright or trademark.

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In case you have not been paying attention, Disney Animation Studio is using the most famous clip from "Steamboat Willie" as part of their trademark.

By the time the movie enters the Public Domain, Disney will be able to defend the clip with a trademark defense.

That would be an interesting court case to read - but I suspect they'd not make the argument - trademark is not blanket, its for the purpose specified - so merely copying or redistributing the work wouldnt trigger it, unless you try to use it to promote animation works or similar.

OTOH, Disney is aggressively pushing trademark where it hasn't gone before. For example, they're asserting that "Movies about Snow White" are a thing only Disney can do, because "Snow White" is a trademark.

I could absolutely see Disney saying "That clip of Steamboat Willie is a trademark of Disney Animation Studios. If you use that in animation, you're diluting our trademark."

That's a very good point

As other commenters have suggested I didn't believe copyright applied to the characters, and use of the characters themselves (and that this was a trademark or other IP issue)... However, it appears that it does (or might). This was an interesting read:

http://www.rightsofwriters.com/2011/04/copyright-in-fictiona...

But I'd be interested in better understanding WHY it applies, and a more legalistic description of what copyright actually mean in this context.

You're conflating copyright and trademark, believing that the protections and terms offered in one transfer to the other.

They don't.

yes, the copyright for an individual work will - but not on the character itself. because the character has slowly evolved over time. The personality and words of the character are protected by copyright, based on the last work created with the character, the appearance is protected by both trademark and copyright.

The protections overlap yes, but are not the same thing.

You can use the character as it appears in the public domain work, but not any copyrightable aspects that appear in works still in copyright. This situation already happened with Sherlock Holmes. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/27/sherlock-holme...

yes, that was the exact point that I was trying to make.

At a minimum what we visually identify as mickey mouse wont leave copyright until, 2035 - but even then certain fundamentals of the character were not finalized until much later.

"Copyrightable aspects" include elements present in the public domain work. These don't get retroactive coverage from the copyrighted elements of the series. Sherlock is public domain, despite being present in later works. The later developments/characters/stories/"aspects" are not.

I was making the point that elements of the character not established in the works coming into public domain, would remain under copyright, and that trademark would also lock the character up (for many specific uses) - but I did fuzz the point excessively.

In the case of Mickey Mouse, this is a substantial part of the characters personality - most of which didnt come out until the successful shorts of the mid-30's.

That isn't true at all, and it has been tested in court. Look okay Sherlock Holmes. Not all of Holmes is in public domain. As long as the character is based on the PD stories, then it is fine. So after 2023 you can create a Mickey story based on steamboat willy. Of course then there are trademark issues to deal with, wish is how I think it should be protected.

Similar situation, and a fantastic explanation how trademarks and copyright work and what they enable or limit in this regard.

I'd say 1923 Mickey Mouse is not only quite recognizable, but aesthetically more pleasing (at least to an adult).

I prefer the 1940 Mickey, if I was picking.

This is completely wrong. The trademark will never expire, but copyright absolutely does.

yes, the copyright for an individual work will - but not on the character itself. because the character has slowly evolved over time.

The expiration of copyright on steamboat Willie, will not allow for anything but royalty free copying of that work.

IANAL but

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/case/klinger-v-conan-doyle-esta... leads me to believe that derivatives of Mickey Mouse that only draw from the public domain work should be fair use. So, no mentioning Minnie, and no stenciling off of a recent design.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks!

There is no copyright on the character itself. There's a copyright on each piece of media the character has been in, like Steamboat Willie, but there is no copyright on Mickey Mouse. The character is trademarked, but not copyrighted.

The words "copyright" and "trademark" are different, and mean different things. You might know this and be fuzzing them for the sake of simplification, but if so, you've over-simplified. They are different, and treating them as the same is wrong and leads to confusion.

The copyright on Steamboat Willie will expire, allowing royalty-free use and copying of that movie, including Mickey Mouse. At that point, that version of Mickey Mouse will be free to us--BUT the ongoing trademark on the character will mean people should still stay away.

I was fuzzing yes - and I was making the point that elements of the character not established in the works coming into public domain, would remain under copyright, and that trademark would also lock the character up - but I did fuzz the point excessively.

Or a creation of a work based on steamboat Willie. Anyone could then write a steamboat Willie 2. You just can't use anything added to the character in later works.

It's not even kinda wrong. The copyright for the 1923 Steam Boat Willie cartoon will expire in 2023, the trademark on Mickey Mouse will not expire, and the copyright of newly-created Mickey Mouse cartoons will eventually expire $WHENEVER.

> never expire so long as they keep making new art of Mickey Mouse

My understanding is merchandising fees are also an issue. Pooh alone apparently nets order $10B/year.

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