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Comment by bischofs | Hacker News Reader

I'll wait till I hear they have a model actually moving to production.

The big oems across the board have been great at convincing people they are looking toward future tech while only releasing new combustion pickup truck and SUV models. They want the excitement for the investors and public that electrification brings but they also want to sell super simple 50 year old V8 motors in body-on-frame trucks, something has to give.

The 2018 auto show is a great example, the big three refreshed all of their pickup models without any news on production or prototype ev's. The "investments" dont mean much if they are minuscule compared to combustion development.

Granted its what people are buying right now but they are not really putting any compelling alternatives out in the market.

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I wouldn't got that far on the truck front, in fact Ford just announced a V6 Turbo Diesel half-ton that should get 30MPG(the Dodge equivalent EcoDiesel already sees 28-30mpg in real-world scenarios). You're not going to see a truck that will fill that role as pure EV for a long while(and I say that as a Model S owner).

Agreed on the announce-but-not-build front. VW did the same but seems like GM is the only one following through.

I see your point with electric pickup trucks, they will probably be the last to convert.

Also I would point out that 3.0 ford engine you are referring to has been around since 2009 as the lion engine in various international markets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17

It probably has a different calibration for the US market to meet stricter emissions but that's about it.

Oh yeah, totally. The EcoDeisel is the same case(Fiat engine from Europe).

I'm just happy to see more efficient engines making it into the US. The fact that you can have a vehicle that will tow 8k GW but get 30mpg unloaded is fantastic.

The X can tow 6k GW but range really tanks so it's okay for short hops but usually when you're towing you're going to be driving > 200mi.

I don't see that point.

About 15-20 years ago, pickups were the go-to vehicle for DIY electric conversions (particularly the Chevy S-10). You could put the heavy lead-acid batteries under the bed and therefore lose no space.

There's no fundamental reason why trucks are less likely to electrify than other vehicles. In fact, the greater fuel savings makes it seem even more likely.

The only thing standing in the way is that some people who buy pickups are part of the idiotic anti-environment movement that likes to "roll coal" (i.e. modify their trucks to spew black smoke). But not everyone who buys pickups is like this, which is why fuel-efficient pickups are a thing.

The torque and power of the electric drivetrain make it possible to make an insanely good truck. It'll happen sooner than you think, certainly before 2022.

So if I buy a new all electric ute (that's what we call them in Australia: a utility vehicle or 'ute' for short), put a 1000kg load in it the back, then attached my 1500kg tool trailer, and drive up and down the hilly Tasmanian terrain...

How much range am I going to get?

That's the one factor that will keep the turbo diesel engine in utility and commercial vehicles for longer.

Not claiming otherwise, but I'd be interested to know what a normal days mileage looks like for you?

> ... up and down the hilly Tasmanian terrain... > How much range am I going to get?

For the same energy-cost, you'll get a LOT more range out of the electric ute. Electric trucks make MORE sense in hilly regions due to regen braking making a much bigger difference than flat regions and due to the lack of brake wear.

>There's no fundamental reason why trucks are less likely to electrify than other vehicles. In fact, the greater fuel savings makes it seem even more likely.

Energy requirements between commuter and heavy-duty commercial vehicles differ substantially, and batteries are of course the biggest hurdle against full electrification.

Light trucks could probably mirror SUV development, at least for part of the market. If they won't, it's probably due to demand side of the equation.

That's backwards. The large energy requirements are exactly why trucks will electrify earlier: as far as useful energy goes, electricity is usually MUCH cheaper than diesel. The more energy that is used, the greater the benefit of electrification.

The power usage are wildly different. Your standard full-ton pickup gets about 10-12 MPG towing a reasonably sized trailer.

GGE for #2 diesel is 37.5kWh @ 50% efficient(which is better than gas) gets you 1.875kW per mile or 562kWh battery pack if you want 300 mile range before charging.

Current Model S packs are 1,300lb per 100kW so you'd be adding over 7,000 lbs just for a battery pack of that size.

For short-haul commercial stuff that's something you can plan for but I don't see a consumer who infrequently tows to variable locations making that work.

For reference your average 30MPG commuter needs only 0.33kWh per mile(and is almost exactly what our Model S does).

The weight still has to go somewhere but this makes me wonder if trailers could have battery packs too, maybe even drive wheels? With electric power trains we could rethink the whole arrangement.

Does it? 7k is close to the max towing capacity of most half-ton pickups so you'd basically be towing a trailer to match the capacity of an empty truck.

I mean add battery capacity to the trailer which extends your range when you need it. Whatever capacity you carry on the trailer would be that much less on the vehicle. 7k is the total battery size to be equivalent to a modern gas tank, the majority of the battery would remain on the truck but the trailer could be used to carry extra in a way that petroleum fuels don't really offer.

Just as an aside: the (optimistic) 50% efficiency figure is lhv, which doesn't take into account all the chemical energy available. 46% if you use HHV.

Electricity is cheap, when plugged in. Mobile storage is the hard (costly and heavy) part.

There's a couple things that make trucks a hard nut to crack(again I say this as a Model S + diesel truck owner).

1. There's a 6k GVWR weight limit for a lot of local streets. Most half-ton trucks are in the 5200k range so adding 2k of batteries easily puts you over this.

2. Trucks are rated for total tow capacity, adding 2k of batteries means you cut towing capacity by 2k or upgrade the brakes/drivetrain which adds more weight.

3. Trucks aren't that aerodynamic, trailers even less so. That means per-kW you're going to get a lot less range than something that has a good Cd.

4. Charging stations just aren't setup for trailers at all. You'd have to find a place to unhitch, charge and rehitch which adds even more travel time.

For commercial trucking routes you can probably go electric sooner since they are regular routes but for consumer trucks I don't see it happening soon.

Recently we had to drive 400mi roundtrip towing a 5k lb trailer @ 18 MPG. Going from a GGE of 37kw/gal * 0.5 thermal we would have needed a 412kWh battery pack to make that trip with 0% range left.

1-2: How much does a diesel fuel tank + transmission + engine weigh? Would it really require adding 2,000lb of batteries to the truck or can something serviceable be built with a similar overall weight?

3: Why does an electric truck have to look like a gasoline truck? can it be repackaged to be more aerodynamic?

4: This is trivially easy to solve.

How many times did you stop for fuel on your trip? How long were you at your destination 200 miles away?

> 1-2

Doubt it considering all BEVs are heavier. Our Model S weights nearly the same as our half-ton and that's without the frame-reinforcement needing to tow.

> 3

If you want standard truck clearance and bed sizes you're not going to do this without making trucks a lot longer. For reference our Model S and short-bed quad cab are already close in length.

> 4

Easy in theory but massive infrastructure investment. Also if you've ever towed a trailer then you'd know there's some sidestreets where superchargers are where you physically cannot turn around a trailer.

For reference we did the trip in 4 hours, no stopping since the truck has a 26gal tank. I'm as big of a proponent of EVs as you'll find but you also can't just blindly assert that EVs will work everywhere if you want to convince people that you aren't crazy. There are realistic limits and I think applying the technology where it makes sense is the fastest way to drive adoption.

2. An electric truck will have way more towing capacity, and the regen braking helps the braking system tremendously.

Towing capacity is more than just the powertrain. The frame, suspension and brakes make a huge difference. 1500->2500 has a huge GVWR jump but only a small engine size increase. The extra weight from a batter pack is also going to eat into your tow capacity.

You also can't rely on engine braking in cold-soaked weather or at full charge so you're still don't get to omit those things.

You most certainly can rely on engine braking in those conditions. In operation, the battery quickly warms up and can easily be set to warm before the car is started. It's also common to not fully charge a large-battery EV unless you need to. It helps battery life if you only charge to ~90% anyway (no one drives around with a fully-fueled conventional vehicle at all times).

I've owned a Model S for 2 years and 65k miles, I'm really familiar with regenerative braking. Let's say your charging for a long trip to 100% and live at to top of a large grade.

In that case you will have to rely on your brakes 100%. I know this because I make a 300mi roundtrip that exactly matches that profile nearly every week and for the first 5 miles I have no regenerative braking.

From a safety standard you have to match the braking system of an equally equiped ICE.

If you live on the top of a tall hill, there's no reason to charge to 100% no matter how long your trip will be as you'll charge up to 100% on the way down.

All you have to do from a safety perspective is ensure there's charge overhead. I own a Volt and there's a "mountain mode" setting for just this purpose, plus in the Volt there's always some headroom in the battery that is held in reserve by the system.

> All you have to do from a safety perspective is ensure there's charge overhead.

Cool, your volt can fallback on its ICE and always leave a reserve a Tesla/Leaf/Bolt just isn't the same.

You're saying I need to plan my charge down to the watt? What happens when I hit 100% with a mile of hill left to go?

What happens if your brakes get too hot with a conventional truck? It's not like this isn't a problem with a conventional vehicle.

Volkswagen has the e-golf in production.

And e-up!.

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