Rents dropping significantly across the Seattle area after new construction
seattletimes.com
seattletimes.com
Just because rent is decreasing on the high end doesnt mean it’s decreasing on the low end apartments.
Apartments are built to a less restrictive code than condos. There aren’t many condos being built in seattle from reading other articles. Similarly there’s much debate about building more homes / townhomes / improving transit.
Amazon supposedly had a hiring freeze recently, and close by (in SLU) I’ve seen folks dancing with “now leasing” signs.
There is a knock-on effect although depending on the spread it might be small.
Ontario (Canada) just raised minimum wage by 20%+ in one shot to $15/hr. Lots of drama happening now as business owners try to adjust.
What I found interesting is that workers who were making $15/hr before the increase are now asking for a raise. It was a restaurant where the front-end made $15 and the dish washers $12. Now the front end says "I should be making more than the dish washers" and it goes all the way up the chain.
The converse is also true in software engineering. Questions like whether programming is "more difficult" than graphic design are largely irrelevant. Humans will always be playing status games, but denigrating labor based on some perceived skill level is a habit we should actively be trying to get rid of. Meanwhile...
> There is a knock-on effect although depending on the spread it might be small.
Can you provide more specific detail where knock-on effects like this have been observed? It's nearly guaranteed that a decrease on low end rents will be vanishingly small. Margins can only go so low, which is why developers are attracted to luxury projects in the first place.
(Likewise, a million dollar paycut from a CEO can only raise 480 person-hour-dollars in wages. But those margins matter a hell of a lot more for the line worker's lifestyle than upper management's.)
Well, their purchasing power is about to go down because when they go out to eat they're going to be paying for $15/hr dishwashers instead of $12/hr dishwashers.
> A difficult, but crucial adaptation needs to happen in a wide variety of industries: The people working the less glamorous, less visible, but equally crucial roles in operating these businesses should have been treated as peers / relative equals all along.
But they're not really. A dishwasher needs to be able to scrub dishes, load & unload a mechanical dishwasher, show up more-or-less on time, not get into fights with the other employees — that's about it (incidentally, I know whereof I speak: my first job was washing dishes).
The front-of-house staff need to speak the local language, be polite & friendly to customers, have good memories, have attention to detail, be able to manage relatively complex situations, be reliable &c. It's a very different — and rarer — skillset.
You don't even really need to have a functional IQ to be a successful dishwasher; you need to be reasonably sociable & quick on your feet to be a successful waiter or maître d'hôtel.
It's eminently reasonable and fair that a job anyone can do will pay less than a job fewer people can do.
No, it isn't.
You don't have to agree in any substantial way with anything else Marx says, to recognize that "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is eminently reasonable and fair.
Everything you're saying to glorify front-of-house roles is also true of back-of-house roles. True, the best possible server in a restaurant can improve the bottom line X% more than the best possible dishwasher can. But comparing the worst possible dishwasher with the worst possible server is also important. Can you say with any confidence which "problem employee" will have a larger negative effect on the bottom line? Probably not.
What if it's just a slightly below average dishwasher? What if the server is "only" sexually harassing coworkers a little bit? Gauging the range of human performance by the wages they use for sustenance is stupid, but apparently necessary.
> Well, their purchasing power is about to go down because when they go out to eat they're going to be paying for $15/hr dishwashers instead of $12/hr dishwashers.
Again, a claim missing some crucial substance. How much is their purchasing power going to go down? Will the price of a hamburger or an apron really go up more than a couple of pennies?
You might be more successful by just arguing that value shouldn't be tied to wages (which is what your quote is really pushing.)
I am explicitly arguing that value and wages are not tied to each other, today, with examples.
Generally speaking, we treat the value of labor in accord with the cost of developing a skill. Whether by correlation or accident, this seems to mean we dramatically undervalue softer skills involved in working with other people. (NB: This is related to, but very different than the customer service face front-of-house puts on.) There are kitchens where the entire morale of the restaurant staff rests on the good natured attitude of the dishwasher. That person leaves, and soon afterwards, everybody hates working there, and nobody can figure out why.
I think any sane businessperson knows this, and does agree with me. Most businesspersons also know that everyone in a restaurant is completely replaceable. Right?
It seems to be much more based on supply & demand.
If everyone could do it, and there were no demand, the value would be low.
A quick way to check this is to look at expensive college programs where people come out making much less than the cost of their education. If you were correct, then such situation would not occur.
(And yes, I’m aware you said “generally”, because must even generally I think it’s incorrect. )
Applying market theory to labor/employer relations, says that wages should tend to go up, if the demand (job openings) for a particular kind of labor exceeds the supply (pool of people who can & will do those jobs). But talking about how labor gets priced by markets doesn't explain anything about why governments choose the minimum wage (if any) that they do. Minimum wage is an explicitly moral consideration where we compel the demand side to observe a floor on the price of your time.
> If everyone could do it, and there were no demand, the value would be low.
That just muddles the separate mechanisms. If everyone has the skill for a job, the potential labor pool is as large as it possibly can be, so supply pressure is naturally higher. You are correct to say that demand pressure is what then drives a negotiated wage. But that's just table stakes to understand what an economy is actually composed of. Does this region have a highly skilled workforce, with demand outpacing the supply of workers, thus driving wages up? Congratulations! This means your region has a proportionally lower supply of low skilled workers, which creates upward market pressure on wages. Using the lens of supply and demand means you now need to look for explanations when the demand for unskilled labor doesn't go down, which is what it would take to keep wages constant.
And the value a supplier (worker) assigns to their own time? Demand pressure only indirectly influences a person's perception of value. People get born into a variety of different financial circumstances that alter their negotiating position.
> A quick way to check this is to look at expensive college programs where people come out making much less than the cost of their education. If you were correct, then such situation would not occur.
As respectfully as possible: this is nonsense. There are all sorts of externalities involved in paying for an education that would never be captured by the labor market model. If somebody is paying a lot of money to develop some skill that has low ROI in the labor market, the only thing that signals is that the person getting the "useless" degree must value having that skill for non-monetary reasons. This kind of thing is always a problem when talking about economics as the science of rational agents. Even if the market demand for a particular skill is zero, some people will use money to develop that skill anyway. This observed fact does not remotely invalidate anything I've said.
Physics degrees are awfully hard to get, and yet for every physicist, there are surely many more sales people who get paid more.
So this is what I disagreed with.
That’s strongly a matter of opinion. Almost anyone is physically capable of being a home health care aide for a dying child, and almost nobody is physically capable of being an NFL quarterback — but I don’t really find it “fair” that the latter is paid a thousand times the salary.
They also got a lot wrong (no where near enough low-income housing .. and a lot of the decent low income housing requiring you to be below the poverty line -- leaving the middle class in really tough spots paying Amazon employ rent while barely making enough to pay it.)
It's still not really working. The homeless problem is still insane. There are still a ton of one unit dwellings that no one is bringing up to code; the ones that use to house the very low income around places like Belltown.
Another thing that didn't "just work" was Amazon giving new employees discounts in certain condos. Turns out someone in HR didn't realize these types of deals were illegal, since private groups can't offer housing discounts or subsidizes or it violates various Fair Housing laws.
It is literally illegal to add to the housing supply in most of the city; a majority of Seattle land is zoned exclusively for detached single-family hones.
If something is a rule then the majority decided it should be that way. If you don't like it, then you are in the minority. If that surprises you, then you may not be accurately measuring the real majorities and minorities, and it would benefit all of to try to understand what the real rules are.
1) things change over time, policies that at one time protected people move on to be things that increase inequality or worsen outcomes.
2) Politics has a long history of excluding less powerful voices. Right now in cities, there is a movement to “re-enfranchise” the people whom have often been ignored, minorities and renters. Often times the will of the people changes because those who were locked out of the decision making process 10/20/30 years ago now hold much more political power and able to influence outcomes.
3) if your bias is “current policy is best policy” then you are biased to favor the voices of the moderately wealthy white home owners who created modern urban land use policy over the past 50 years at the expense of renters and minorities.
Few systems are direct democracies. Isn't it more likely the people decided the rule maker should be who the rule maker is (or makers are) and the rule maker(s) then decided what the law should be. And that is just some of the political systems you can model.
Think of like how congress like a <25% approval rating but most of them keep getting voted back in.
- People often want to limit housing in their particular city/neighborhood, but
- They agree that there should be more housing built somewhere, just not near them
It's like being for pollution regulations, except that you demand that you yourself (and your buddies) be exempt. Normally that wouldn't work in a democracy, but imagine that only the polluters get to vote: that's how land use regulations get decided (because the beneficiaries of lower housing costs would be largely potential residents, and you have to live there to vote).
In practice, the solution is to have zoning decisions made at a higher level; at the metro area level is probably the best one, since they tend to function as economic units, and that mimics how people tend to choose housing.
The problem comes when you realize what you have to do to get a vote, which is to buy a house. If you can't afford to live there then you can't vote for policies that will reduce housing costs there because you aren't a resident. And once you have a vote because you own a house, now you want housing prices to go up rather than down.
There is no way for the people who need less expensive housing to vote for it, and the opposite incentive for the people who could vote for it to actually do that.
The franchise isn't restricted to homeowners; renters too can vote.
Only if they can afford to pay the rent there. Which is difficult in an area zoned almost entirely for single family homes, because hardly anybody can afford to rent an entire house but not afford to actually buy it.
Especially because we have a whole collection of policies to encourage people to buy rather than rent, which causes disproportionately many of the people who can afford to live in areas with high housing costs to be owners rather than renters and therefore vote for policies that keep prices high.
I think this is one reason why smallish homeowners are not comfortable with developers bringing in lots of high density housing (at whatever price). They feel pretty well aligned with their neighbors and don't want the balance of power to shift. Maybe a proportional representation system at the council level could help defuse tensions in some markets.
I've developer a few simplistic economic simulations in the past for fun, some of which included land ownership, but I never considered adding each agent having the ability to modify the law of land ownership as part of the simulation. The comment made me think of what would the impact of adding it be, and if there is less validity of models which don't include it.
I keep an eye on rents in SF and I've definitely noticed the trend downward over the past year or so. It was common to see 1-beds go for $3000+ and now most seem to be in the high $2000s.
Just my observation so I didn't know if it went as far as people renegotiating their rents down yet.
Edit: Just took a look at units in the Mission. Holy crap are there a lot of them (124 1-bedroom units). A few years back there were maybe ~20 max at any given time. Lots of new buildings and recently renovated. Even units in prime locations (close to Dolores Park) are sub-$3000 (although not many).
Last year I was in Seattle and all I heard was complaints about all of the highrises going up as if that was what was causing the high rents. headdesk
Well, no. People are complaining about the change in their neighborhoods, of which high rents and new construction are both observable qualities.
But not to worry...if rents are truly declining, the new construction will rather quickly stop. Real estate investors are smart enough not to build into falling markets for long. They will leave holes in the ground before they complete a project that won't pencil out on financing -- just as they did in Seattle and San Francisco during the last bust.
(Edit: you guys...really. The article itself says that construction has already slowed down:
"Developers and banks that lend money for new construction have taken notice of the market cooling. While tons of new buildings are already approved or under construction now, the pipeline for future projects that exist only on paper is shrinking."
If rents decline from new construction, it happens over years of economic shifts, not because developers rush headlong over the cliff like a bunch of lemmings.)
I don't think anyone who understands supply and demand thinks that new construction won't slow - it's pretty self evident that if demand slows that people will stop adding supply. If anything, I think folks are objecting to the tone of your post that makes it sound like declining rents will leave a wake of "holes in the ground" instead of a normal and healthy adjustment.
I didn't post "evidence" (scare quotes yours). The quote is right there, in the article. It's something that's actually happening, and I quoted it because of the irony.
Likewise, I lived in SF during the last crash. I saw the holes in the ground, with my own eyes -- developers pulled construction equipment out of foundations, and left them there, at mid-Market, in downtown San Francisco. I lived near two of them.
Nothing I'm saying here is even remotely theoretical. The real issue is that there's a certain popular narrative here, and any facts that disagree with that narrative are immediately ejected from the conversation. It isn't "haughty disdain" to observe that people are rejecting facts that don't fit their biases.
Also note, 2008 was unusually dramatic; one of the big projects in downtown sunnyvale went bankrupt and changed hands several times before completion. Yes, declining home prices do sometimes leave long term holes in the ground, but mostly only when prices decline a lot more quickly than expected, as they did in 2008.
I was here in 2001, too, though (or a little up the peninsula) and there was a bigger drop in rent (though not sale prices) then than in 2008. In 2001, sure, you saw 'for rent' signs, but as far as I remember, the 'holes in the ground' as you put it, of buildings who's builders had gone bankrupt partway through were rare.
I grant you that 2008 was exceptional, as recessions go...but it's not rare to see projects abandoned. I saw it in Seattle in 2001 as well. It just depends on the state of the projects when the recession hits -- you might not get "holes in the ground" unless the decline hits quite suddenly (as in 2008), but you definitely see projects abandoned. That's universal.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-cities-see-apartment-rents-...
http://www.businessinsider.com/rents-are-plunging-in-the-mos...
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/03/rent-prices-show-signs-of-ca...
But yeah, I haven't done the digging to attempt to quantify that effect.
My second point remains, however. Building more housing does not inflate prices. (and yes, I know it's not quite as simple as econ 101 supply and demand, but)
That's the thing, though, I kinda don't believe it. I mean, sure, people from China buying US real estate; I can totally believe that one (and that would increase demand and thus put upwards pressure on sale prices)
The part I have a hard time swallowing is the idea that they'd let them sit empty. The real estate agent they bought from would be super happy to hook them up with a full service property mangement company that could deal with renting the things out; I'm sure said agent could (for a hefty cut, of course) set it up so the owner need not be bothered at all.
I mean... I guess there could be something I'm missing, but the idea of people buying up some of the most valuable realestate in the world and then letting it sit empty (and supposedly paying somene to come by and check on it, etc...) just seems really unlikely vs. buying and renting it out.
To rent out your Ferrari you'd have to run an agency and couldn't use it as you wanted to. Which kind of defeats the purpose of a luxury good.
(It's hard to find data on how prevalent this is... From one article, it looks like a Palo Alto realtor estimated in 2015 that about 20% of home sales were to Chinese investors, with about half of these leaving the house unoccupied: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/28/realtors-printin... )
Apparently they'd keep enough of these units off that they could keep the 1 bedroom price around $2k, but not too many so the city wouldn't catch on.
I couldn't find anything else though, either in the news or other people in knew in real estate, to corroborate that; so maybe he was blowing smoke or taking tokes.
Rich people moving in to a working class neighborhood makes the neighborhood more attractive to other rich people, both directly and by bringing in rich people amenities. So building high end housing can ultimately cause more demand and higher bids for the existing housing in the neighborhood.
This is a good start, but I hope they don't stop building and complete all the existing projects. The prices are still high. ST3 will help make it easier to live where you want, with a lower income, and still be able to commute reasonably, by train, to work.
I do agree that it's complicated, though!
As someone who lives in New York, I can attest that affluent people will just rent the apartments that already exist in the neighborhood and drive the prices up for everyone. The difference is that the shitty tenement one bedroom gets bumped to 3k/month because the affluent will displace the current occupants.
If you build luxury buildings, the affluent will move into those. Sure, that will have a second order effect on the desirability of the neighborhood (which is what I believe you are arguing), but I am of the belief that that is a separate issue. Gentrification is its own bag of worms.
A while back someone said "Luxury Housing is future middle class housing" and that rings pretty true. The economic incentives are to build nice properties and over time those properties get old. A good percentage of them get divided up into smaller places or simply rented for less as new inventory comes on line.
The history of US housing is (with a few exceptions, notably the post WWII housing boom) a story of people building premium housing that, as it ages, becomes affordable housing. Thing how many big old houses end up converted into duplexes or townhouses.
But lately we've 1) used zoning to stop the conversion of premium housing into cheaper housing and 2) used zoning and planning permission to stop the construction of premium housing and then wondered why we don't have enough affordable housing. What a mystery!
> It is complicated, though.
It's a complex system with many different forces in play, yeah, but it's not that complicated. If you build more housing, the price of housing drops. Building expensive apartments in a neighbourhood doesn't magically create affordable apartments in the same neighbourhood, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
The exception would be if, somehow, building 100 units of housing somehow attracts more than 100 families into the city from outside the area, which...I dunno, it could happen, but is it? Has it ever? It sounds unlikely at first glance.
The problem in some cities (London) is that this does happen at some level: 100 units of housing attract enough investors to start a speculative price rise, as they buy multiple units each. Maybe 50 of those units will stay empty forever, but average prices in the area will have been pushed up for good, compounding the problem.
In no place in the US is this true. Even in San Francisco 100 units of new housing get occupied in excess of 80% by households already in SF.
Induced housing demand is common in the majority of cities across the US. The act of creating urban housing makes an area in higher demand than the housing just built could actually supply. The action of creating 100 units of supply simultaneously generates ~120+ units of demand.
Most people refer to this as "gentrification", even if that label isn't totally accurate. It obviously doesn't last forever, you can't generate more demand indefinitely. But it absolutely does happen -- we see the results all the time.
And to be clear that's not an argument against new housing -- we obviously need to build more housing. But it's a common observation that new 'market-rate' urban housing does not lower prices, but raises them in short and medium length timeframes (yes even in non-coastal cities, yes even in small towns, etc).
We see this in Seattle too. Seattle rents are 4.5% higher than last year, or 50% higher than they were 5 years ago, according to the articles own data. They'll be even higher next year, and Seattle Times will write an article about the winter slowdown in leasing, and rents will rise even higher again a year later. Until the bubble pops, the cycle will continue.
The last study I saw on the subject in San Francisco showed that for 100 units of newly constructed supply, about 85 would be consumed by extant demand, roughly 15 would be consumed by new migrants, and less than 10 new units of demand that would not have existed otherwise gets generated. This is admittedly not obvious, and generally looks like purely generated demand when viewed at a very coarse level.
Incidentally, induced demand is an idea I often see advanced as an argument against constructing housing.
> The number of recorded empty homes in London is far below its long-term average, at 1.7% of total stock.
From the same report:
> In the last two decades the number of jobs in London has grown by 40% and the number of people by 25%, but the number of homes by only 15%
So if the number of people is increasing faster than the number of houses, and the percentage of empty houses is falling, then offhand I'd say your numbers are a bit exagerrated. Yes, certainly some people buy property as an investment and leave it empty, but even in London, it's not that many. And as for this:
> average prices in the area will have been pushed up for good, compounding the problem.
Asset price bubbles are a thing, but so far, everyone who's ever believed that prices were going to stay high forever has been burned, badly. What will keep London house prices high is that they're not building very many. If that changes, prices will fall. (And fall all the quicker when the people buying Mayfair properties as an investment decide to liquidate them before the price falls any further. As, again, is the way of asset bubbles.)
[1]: https://files.datapress.com/london/dataset/housing-london/20...
Anybody who doesn't think this is a problem just needs to take a look at one Hyde park. Nearly empty. Prime location. You could demolish that and build high rise flats for a thousand people there, maybe more. The problem isn't just how many prime location empty apartments there are but how big they are too.
That sounds like a big argument in favour of "building more units will fix the problem" then. :)
> Anybody who doesn't think this is a problem just needs to take a look at one Hyde park.
I'm going to stick with data over anecdotes. If the data we have is flawed, then we need better data in order to make decisions; it doesn't mean we should just ignore data.
It's an argument in favour of building units people will live in (e.g. council housing) and against big units that consume large amounts of land that people won't live in (e.g. yet another block of luxury flats treated as gold-bar-like stores of wealth).
The amount of property tax paid on those apartments is pitiful and amounts to a market distortion. It needs to be raised about 100x before the owners will be incentivized to yield hoarded land to more productive use.
>I'm going to stick with data over anecdotes.
So you think if the data is simply based upon asking people if they live in their properties that it is to be believed?
Raising property taxes would definitely solve the problems but the political forces arrayed against that are very powerful.
So, yeah, "easy" to solve if the market is structured right. It often isn't.
Granted, increasing property taxes would put pressure to rent out empty property. However, the occupancy rate is also very high so it's not currently a meaningful issue.
Property taxes are part of the problem in many cases. When property taxes are low that doesn't really happen, but when they're high nobody wants to build new housing. Because the net present value of the future property tax comes out of what someone will pay for a new building, making it less profitable to construct one.
You should probably provide a source on that one. Rents are sticky. Its equally likely they are already wealthy and want to move to a "hip" neighborhood which tend to be recently poor/urban. Rents don't fall as quick in the place they left but rise quickly in the place they're headed, which just raises the average rent in both places.
It also creates demand for people who wanted to live in the former neighborhood and can now move there because there is a vacancy (or after any slight reduction in rent brings otherwise marginal renters).
This is all just conjecture without data, and there is very little data studying this because, as the previous poster says, its complicated and there's no way to do a controlled experiment.
If these people truly valued the "character" of their city then they wouldn't try to make it more attractive to other people. They want those new people and they want them to buy their overpriced property.
Is it a slower, more secondary effect where over a period of time more rich people move in and somehow raise demand which leads to overbidding by a second wave of newcomers?
Maybe I'm presuming too much, but I don't understand why rich people would be willing to overpay for "low quality" housing in the working class area? Are they actually paying market rent, but what's happened is that all of the current residents are somehow paying below-market rent?
In contrast Vancouver is also building more substantially more multi-unit residences than ever before, but somehow Vancouver's vacancy rate remains sub 1%. In a reverse from Seattle, Vancouver predominantly builds condos, and this could be a factor.
Vancouver, likely needing the assistance of the provincial and federal government for legislative changes, needs to start doing things differently, and Canadian governments need to find a way to incentivize developers to build rental apartments instead of condos.
You can say that a lot of those cities fall under the category of "fancy towns" where people come not to earn money, but to spend them. There, markets can remain irrational for a loooong time: Sydney, Dubai city, Hongkong, Shenzhen
On my memory, Shenzhen had an astronomic ~20% vacancy rate 5 to 6 years ago while already being the most expensive city in China. Rentier and property investors decided to wait out, expecting prices to go up even further, and they did!
That said, according to a quick Google search, Sydney -- which is going to be the most similar of the cities you mentioned to American/Canadian ones, for obvious reasons -- apparently only has a 1.9% vacancy rate, which is very low.
New development is constrained by available trades, construction times, design time, and city review time. Already the City of Vancouver has increased development application fees in order to hire more persons to review development applications faster.
In my neighbourhood there is a high rise under construction that is still not completed but already one year over due. The development industry is continuously stating that more supply is required, but they can't even finish building their own buildings.
Yes, but regulatory factors usually dominate those in these high-cost markets. Like in Seattle's case, it's literally illegal to add to housing supply in most of the city; a majority of land is zoned exclusively for detached single-family homes. What new density there is comes in little strips, which means it tends to come in larger buildings, which have higher base costs to build. It's impossible to make "affordable housing" in a skyscraper.
If more cities allowed more "missing middle" type housing throughout their area, they could make a serious dent in housing prices. But, SFH areas are sacred cows in America (and I'm guessing much of Canada too).
Vancouver is seriously building wildly more units than the historical norm. https://twitter.com/YVRHousing/status/950813525403774976
At some point if this isn't working we have to stop saying well let's add even more supply" and start looking to other solutions.
Why not use "units started" or "units finished" instead?
So I found "fancier" places alluring, but in reality they are just apartments with a bit more than the bare minimum design. I sometimes wonder if there is a business scheme behind this contrast but I try not to feed into my paranoia.
So they may be dropping on the high end, but across a lot of people i've talked to the low to mid end is stubbornly holding strong and refusing to see the writing on the wall that a beat up older apartment building just... isn't worth this much.
I have seen rents overall dropping on craigslist, especially for larger harder to rent units. They're down quite a bit from this summer if you're willing to split a 3+ bedroom apartment or house, when they were absolutely stratospheric before(often close to the same as just renting multiple cheap studios)
Also I like calling those new buildings The Amazon Testicles.