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Comment by chimen | Hacker News Reader

2 months ago I signed up for a 30 day trial to search for people to hire and then 140 eu/mo if I decide to continue using it.

Of course I forgot to stop it (they were pretty quiet also) and they charged me 1400+ eu for a full year because...why not - no refunds (that's what their page says).

I know, I know...should have read the whole shebang. Lost 1400 euros for something I didn't really use. I was about to pay for a month and discontinue but now I feel robbed. I do websites myself and I write in `bold - caps - red` when I'm about to charge someone for a full year.

Shady tactics.

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The same thing happened to me - you can get a refund. I sent them a very nasty email and contacted my credit card company. Eventually they sent me some bullshit about "We'll let it slide this time, because we're nice" and gave me my money back. Call or email ASAP, I'm sick at the thought of LinkedIn ever making another cent.

Same happened to me a while back when trying out Pro. I went to cancel it and they charged it a day prior to the day I was supposed to cancel on.

If this ever happens again : call your credit card company for a chargeback. The ball will be in their court to prove the charge was fair, which they will never be able to do. Plus they get fined for the chargeback itself (“chargeback fee”). And, if it happens too often, their cc premiums go up. Triple win!

If someone messes with your CC, call your bank immediately. Chargebacks are a powerful tool. Use them.

Thanks. I did get it resolved at the time via what was said about sending a vehement email but yes, as much as I have issues w/ how credit companies operate, there are some good consumer protections these days.

If you paid by credit card, consider contacting your card company and initiating a chargeback. If LinkedIn was not up-front about charging you immediately for a full year after the 30-day trial, then let them prove that this tactic is not fraudulent to the credit card company.

Saw your comment after posting mine, but you’re spot on!

My credit card company offers a way to generate a one-time credit card number so that I can safely trial a service and have the monthly charges stop after one month. If I want to continue the service, I can provide my real static credit card number.

That's super cool, I'd never heard of that. I'd only known of the benefit of some cryptocurrencies bringing that feature

That's awesome, but it unfortunately won't help when a company charges for a full year in advance like LinkedIn does.

Sure it can. The Bank of America system lets you set an upper credit limit on the temporary numbers. While BofA can ignore it at their discretion, if you set the limit at around $100 I suspect they'd deny a $1400 charge.

Mine also let's you chose a maximum amount that can be charged to the temporary card number. I usually add 10% or 20% extra to the expected amount so that unexpected taxes or shipping costs don't block the whole transaction.

I really love the feeling of safety that I get from chosing the max amount, being sure that I won't be overcharged.

I love the points I get from my current cards, but what card is this actually? This sounds like a really killer card I’d use frequently for these use cases.

The service I was writing about is French: http://www.service-virtualis.com/virtualis/index.htm

So unfortunately if you get points I'm guessing you're from North America and probably won't be able to apply.

I haven't searched but there might be such services available to you in a nearer bank.

Thank you for the link (I'm French too), but my bank (BNP) is not on the list :'(

I've done it with a Citi Double Cash card. It's a nice all around card: 2% cash back, price matching, temporary numbers, etc. Don't take my recommendation blindly though, do your own research first of course!

Edit: As a meta-sidenote, it was very difficult for me to write this comment without feeling like it would come across as corporate shilling. I have no connection to Citi and nothing to gain from recommending their card, but there's no way for anybody else to know that, and the issue of selling old accounts is a real one (though don't know about HN specifically). I wonder what the best solutions are to this sort of issue.

Unfortunately only the shittiest of the shitty banks (BofA and Citi) appear to still offer temp numbers. Amex did for a while but dropped it.

All the citibank cards can generate Virtual Account Numbers with time and dollar limits. I use them frequently.

I did this strategy just today with privacy.com which isn't a credit card at all but bills your bank account directly.

Bank of America credit cards have this, they call it ShopSafe. My old Citi card had that although I can’t verify they still offer it. I believe Capital One has virtual credit card number capability as well.

Yup, Citi still has it

US market here... Citi card. For many reasons, I loathe Citi and would like to drop using them, but I keep this card for this one feature.

I found out the hard way that my bank added 10% extra for the reasons you mention. I ended up getting ripped off for a smallish amount on a big transaction because of this.

yes it does, the one time use credit card number comes with an amount of money.

When I order a 20€ item, I generate a credit card number valid for a single use of 20€. If the merchant tries to charge 19.99€ or 21€ or any different amount it will be rejected (and the merchant may have to pay penalty for payment being rejected).

Was this before or after Microsoft bought them? It would be extremely unpleasant if that behavior was outwardly supported by Microsoft.

Edit: 2 months ago! Microsoft needs to fix LinkedIn. They bought them 6 months ago, if they dont change this dark pattern behvaior, they appear to be sanctioning it.

It was in 8 of November. Just checked.

I suspect management has set some revenue goals for LinkedIn.

People who would otherwise act sensibly can talk themselves into some shady stuff when there's money and career advancement at stake.

And management always escapes the blame.

"Really? Automatic billing? For an entire year?! I never ordered any such thing, I just set up impossible revenue goals! Oh my cheese and whiskers!"

This is probably exactly what happened. I can easily imagine upper management settings unrealistic performance goals that force the minions to make dark choices...

> upper management setting unrealistic performance goals

yes

> force the minions to make dark choices

Unless some project manager was tied to a chair and beaten with a rubber hose, no one was forced to do anything.

If a career criminal takes 1400€ from me because his employer has set unrealistic performance goals, I still want that criminal to see justice and my money returned.

I agree, but management acting ignorant of how the sausage is made is just as bad.

Basically, that criminal's employer should also face dire consequences or his take away will be "lets properly vet the next criminal I hire so this doesn't happen again".

Now, this is not Uber levels of shady shit, but it's a start. I hope if we remain vigilant and make our voices heard things will improve for the better.

Certainly, I would also wish that the criminal's employer were to face justice. That's basically a given.

I think it's high time to reign this practice. All services should explicitly ask before extension. Some people may want to waive such a "request to continue" off but customers must explicitly sign such a waiver. In general, "continue without ask" is a highly unethical practice at the very least.

Already done. Sadly Linked In adheres to US law and not Dutch/EU consumer rights.

I have no faith any US administration will ever do anything good for its citizens but keep fighting the fight.

Do they? If they do business in the EU they are within reach, are they not?

Perhaps they'll have different terms & condition, depending on your IP/bank number.

I always but a calendar note for this exact reason, except for one time I forgot to with Slingbox. No monthly receipt and it was only after looking at my bill several months later that I realized I was being quietly charged. If I’m being billed monthly, I should have a receipt sent to me every month. Shady tactics.

Sadly, this a trend I am seeing more and more with monthly recurring subscription companies no matter their size. Even with Netflix, I don't get a monthly receipt or billing reminder. There is no excuse for not sending out a monthly reminder and/or receipt each time my credit card is charged. It's a shady tactic to reduce churn but in the end, I am sure increases chargebacks and results in increased customer complaints.

If you subscribe through Google play, you get a monthly email for each subscription. At least that's how it works for me.

Adobe employs similar tactics.

Even though I was paying per month for the Creative Suite, I was told that I was only able to cancel my subscription during a small timeframe each year. If I didn't take advantage of the opportunity at that time, I would have to fork out for the service each month for another full year. I couldn't preempt it by asking to have the subscription cancelled when the year was up - I had to notify them at that time. I did have the option to cancel early if I paid a large penalty (some large percentage of the remaining monthly payments as far as I recall).

The whole thing left me with an aversion to Adobe in general and provided the impetus I needed to look at other solutions.

Any luck calling your credit card company or bank and disputing the charge? Credit card companies actually give the average consumer a lot of clout against shady business tactics like this so long as you have a good history with the card issuer.

I was able to get Adobe to let me out just a couple days ago. I was pretty harsh about Adobe to the person I was speaking with but made sure they understood I appreciated them. Took me 45 minutes but it can be done.

Unfortunately I didn't attempt this.

I literally just realized I was a premium member after reading this comment and cancelled my subscription.

Yeah, I canceled my premium membership a few years ago after they just kept doing stupid stuff, and only this week finally got around to deleting my LinkedIn account entirely.

LinkedIn barely serves any useful purpose any more, and with Microsoft in charge I don't imaging them using the data for positive-for-me purposes.

I see how they're deadly silent during the trial, but as soon as you cancel you're bombarded with emails nagging to return.

Call your CC, tell them they charged you incorrectly, include the page saying 140/month.

It's not about that. I'm the CEO. I'm sure it's somewhat my mistake because they wouldn't risk lawsuits for shady tactics. Probably a 0.8px text in gray somewhere on that page saying I'll get charged yearly and not monthly.

Doesn't matter. I recently got suckered into their free premium trial as well which then resulted in monthly charges. I complained quite vocally about their tactics and got it refunded straight away. It is worth a shot. At the very least be willing to pay a minimum of a month's fees.

"...they wouldn't risk lawsuits for shady tactics."

This sounds like you don't do business often (with US corporations?) They're hoping more people like you just let it ride. That's how they're making money.

Hit them where it hurts - have the bank perform a chargeback. Enough of that happens, and their rates to accept credit cards goes up.

I completely agree. This is their core business: they know very well what to do so that people don't cancel (keep quiet, not send a reminder), they know equally well the percentage of people who will get mad, they know how small the group is, and that the net benefit is well worth it.

I don't think one chargeback changes anything, but if people are more aware (not just in case of LinkedIn, but in general), this could make this shady business strategy less profitable.

Are you sure you didn't buy enterprise offering that actually sells annual job slots that you can use for unlimited job postings? Your description sounds like it and that's what big companies usually do. I think you were actually looking for pay-for-performance job postings: https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/74054/pay-per-...

Disclaimer: LinkedIn employee, but in a different team.

I had something similar happen, and LinkedIn was willing to offer a refund after contacting them.

What would have happened if your bank asked for approval for charge to your card?

What if credit cards had an api or so for requesting monthly payments... similar to how app permission works.

Google did something similar to me with Google Apps, and I lost $500 over 2 years. They refused to refund me too.

I now have zero desire to use any paid Google service ever again.

Was thinking of using them to hire for my company and you just talked me out of it.

In the EU they have to write these things upfront in big letters. I doubt this is legal..

You should file a complaint with you consumer protection agency. And ask you bank to cancel the payment, just call it fraud.

I know, it's easy to feel like you were being stupid. But they are intentionally preying in you, it's not by accident, it's by design. That IMO makes it fraud, fight back.

This kind of automatic subscription needs to be regulated, it's still the most prominent dark pattern.

Amazon is actually really good with this. I got a mail early January that I had just been signed up for a whole year of amazon prime, which I saw after my holidays 2 days into the 'subscription'.

I was instantly fuming and ready to rain down hell fire when I conveniently found a button to cancel. I could easily undo the whole thing from the site with no user interaction. They made it very clear the money would be refunded. Props to them.

I faced the same issue with Audible. But audible refunded the amount after I called them. They even offered a discount instead of refund.

Same thing with RocketLawyer. They got me for a whole year and never once sent me a receipt.

I called their customer service and the guy who answered was well prepared for the call because it must happen to them all the time. At least I got a six-month refund.

Shady? You signed up for a trial, didn't ready the terms, didn't cancel, and they charged you as they said they would. How is that shady? They did exactly what they said they would.

When you sign up for the free trial, it literally says right there on the checkout page "Total after free trial: ($99.95 x 12 months) $1,199.40". Beyond that, they email you 7 days before the trial ends to warn you.

the shady part was that they charged him for a full year after he forgot to cancel, despite quoting the price on a monthly basis when he signed up.

(Also, "free" auto-renew trials like this without refunds are by themselves shady imo)

He says they didn't quote him the yearly price. All you have to do is go through the beginning of their trial signup process to see that they clearly disclose it in a completely open and visible way.

The whole practice of free trials which seamlessly blend into paid service is shady imo. Not counting that they billed him for a whole year.

What's annoying is that it's difficult to be a 'good' company in this environment. Ours offers a completely free trial of our service, no obligation or sneaky practises whatsoever. It is what it says it is: a trial. Customers find it difficult to believe we're not going to stealth-charge them, even though we take no payment details, so there's no way we possibly could.

A trial that automatically turns into a paid subscription isn't a trial, it's a deferred subscription with an initial free period. Stop calling that a "trial".

In Germany most print subscriptions are "good", i.e. if your free trial expires you can just cancel after one month.

Some (all?) EU countries say you can't use the word "free" for this type of shenanigans. My employer went through meticulously removing the word "free" and surprise, surprise once you tell customers what the real situation is the flow of new sign ups slows considerably.

I love EU consumer protection efforts...

There are so many shady business practices, and I love it when the EU fights back :)

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