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Comment by stdbrouw | Hacker News Reader

All in favor of being open about the ups and downs of parenthood. What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice they've performed for the greater good, when ultimately having children is just a personal choice they made. I can sympathize up to a point, but when parents complain that they hate their lifestyle (or lack of one) now that they have children, it's hard not to think "well, gee, maybe should've considered that before making such a momentous decision."

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That’s a bit harsh. First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one).

We are also biologically inclined to ignore thinking about what kind of pain we are in for and just be...excited. Otherwise, I doubt anyone would have kids and humanity would just go instinct. Likewise, once the kid has arrived, nature pulls more tricks to keep us parents motivated (evolved cuteness, for example).

You can definitely be prepared for what it is like to have a child before having one. Everything you know is not wrong. Yes, it may be a lot of work but it is not beyond the realm of comprehension for us mere mortals.

We went to all the classes and read all the books. And no, we weren’t prepared, had way too many misconceptions about baby behavior, and this is above all babies being different.

To strengthen your point. This is ultimately my problem with any statistically based thing. If parenthood was deterministic, then it would be easy.

So, is it possible that some folks are "fully prepared" for parenthood? Almost certainly. I'd expect that the numbers work out such that people like this do exist. Parents that were fully ready for the children they got.

However, this is like expecting someone can know exactly how to play poker, following the rules on when to bet and when not to, and then getting shocked to see that you still don't win every game. Statistically, you will lose games. Best you can do is have the game setup so that the losses are small and the wins are leveraged.

This is like saying you can learn to write a perfect program, without ever writing one. Sure, while maybe theoretically possible, I'll take someone with 10 years of experience over 10 years of study everyday. Because at some point, experience is a thing; having lived through the event and having the scars. And that experience is really an irreplaceable part of being human and the learning process.

TIL I'm the equivalent of a badly written "Hello world".

The variables with children are nearly impossible to prepare for. No amount of preparation will do handle:

1. Development/physical disabilities, or overall health issues

2. Reaction from others, will immediate/extended family help? It's one thing to ask, another for the reality to set in. Overall support base in general.

3. Employment realities. Will a lot of employers have explicitly stated policies, the day-to-day realities often differ (and can be very different between mum(s)/dad(s)).

4. Just general variations in children/growth. I have two, one eats but doesn't sleep well, the other doesn't eat well but sleeps soundly. One enjoys time to himself, but has a temper. The other is far more social (so much social) but is very even-tempered and empathic. No amount of preparation can provide enough knowledge/experience to deal with these qualities, not withstanding 1/2/3.

As others said, we read books, attended classes, looked after nieces/nephews, younger siblings, baby sat etc. We were still woefully unprepared for our own.

I disagree. I have three kids, and before them being born I was aware that being a parent means a lot of work. But I realize now that I was not really understanding what being a father really means. It's much more laborious, complex yet satisfying and marvellous than I could ever have imagined.

This is not practically true. Imagine if the same could be said for romantic relationships:

"You can definitely be prepared for what cohabitation/marriage is like before your first relationship. It may be a lot of work, but it is not beyond comprehension."

Yes, the brain is capable of comprehending life in cohabitation, as proven by the current mental state of all who are currently in the situation. Getting to that mental state without experiencing cohabitation is practically impossible.

Now swap out "romantic partner" with "small person completely dependent upon you for survival for the next 18+ years".

You're not wrong, but in most areas of life there's a reason we make a distinction between education and experience. Knowing that there will be sleepless nights with a crying baby is very, very different than surviving sleepless nights with a crying baby.

You don't need to be prepared for raising a child to know that it is difficult and that it will require major sacrifices.

> First, you really have no idea what you are getting into when you have a kid, no one can prepare you for it, all of what you think you know about having a baby is probably wrong (unless you’ve had one).

I guess this is the result of having so few children nowadays. But not so long ago, many people got a very real and practical first experience by helping in raising their siblings. And depending on how large the family was, I assure you it could prepare you very well.

I dunno...to me that's just a cop-out excuse to avoid simply admitting that you didn't do your research, or that you turned a blind eye to warning signs of what parenting is like. Do people go through life not knowing other people that have kids and not see what they go through?

I don't have kids. I had a vasectomy earlier this year to make sure I don't have kids. I watched my brother have them. To call them a handful is like calling Hurricane Harvey just some light rain and winds. They require constant supervision. Can't even spend 5 minutes taking a dump or they'll scribble on the walls with a Sharpie (Yes, that happened).

> (evolved cuteness, for example)

I don't think babies are cute in the slightest. To some people, that makes me a monster.

I like baby animals. Kittens, puppies, even baby elephants. But baby humans? Nah, I just see some creature that is probably about to decide to start screaming or shit itself.

In America, at least, having children is most definitely a sacrifice. "Noble" is a subjective qualifier that's actually irrelevant. The fact is without kids the thing that fuels our economy, consumption, disappears. In many ways parents are subsidizing the childless. It isn't a bad thing to note that.

Also, nobody knows the extent of what one must give up to parent. No matter how prepared a person thinks he or she is, they aren't. Having kids is very abstract right up to the point that it's not. The concrete realization starts to happen earlier and more intimately for the mother because of the gestational period, but that realization sets in eventually for both parents.

As my old buddy John McGinty put it "I knew having kids would be a big job; I just didn't know it would be relentless!"

In many ways parents are subsidizing the childless

What complete nonsense. There are 7Bn+ people in the world. Making more people is not a problem the human race has. Far from subsidising the child-free, you are destroying the ecosystem with your selfishness.

Honestly, having children is one of the most selfish things you can do. I.e. thinking your genetic material is special and passing it on to another person in an overcrowded world. Any “sacrifice” in raising a child is not — they are half you and an extension of self.

Personally I believe that bringing a consciousness to this world without the subject's consent is morally corrupt.

I know you're probably pulling my leg, but how many times has a subject ever willfully consented to being brought to consciousness? Answer: {}

Correct. You have identified the problem.

The solution would need to happen in less than three generations.

Not so sure having kids AT ALL is an immoral choice in an overcrowded world. 1 kid, or 2 kids; is replacement level at worst.

I would have a bone to pick with folks who feel entitled (or "commanded by $deity") to have 6, 7, 8 or more kids. That's just absurd stupidity.

I, personally, found parenthood to be enormously rewarding. And that may not be something one comes to grips with when kids are 3. Or 10. Or even 18. Having kids with medical problems, or mental health problems, can be a challenge, and you can miss out on the immediate sense of accomplishment when it's overwhelmed with "just get through today". This is a big-picture thing.

I'm also not blinded by illusions of; having a legacy, having something that is a "permanent" accomplishment, or even just having someone else in this world who I can relate to. My feeling is that my kids turned out to be pretty good people, and the world as a whole is a better place with them in it. In Net. Considering even their resource consumption. They are part me. They are my intention and will. But they are their own beings as well, with their own hopes and dreams.

Hell: we're all worm food in the end. It's not pleasant facing or contemplating death. Maybe we all would have liked to have been asked permission before being brought into this world against our will. I think the main difference it made for me was that I participated in life. The process of life. The continuation of life. The strife for survival. I did not look at the world, and decide to simply persist until I perished. I lived. Even if I have another 30-50 years on this world. I gave it a shot.

Replacement rate is a smidge over two _on average_. That doesn't mean that it's wrong to have more than two children, any more than it means it's wrong to have fewer than two.

If you look at my wider family, you'll see some people with no children and some with five. But even on such a small scale, we average out at around replacement rate.

> I would have a bone to pick with folks who feel entitled (or "commanded by $deity") to have 6, 7, 8 or more kids. That's just absurd stupidity.

I have to laugh at this, because 3 years ago I was this person and I know exactly how the conversation would go. I had 3 kids and planned for 6-7 of them, then I left the Mormon religion.

But I would love to hear the conversation. I can't speak for everyone, but in Mormonism at least you literally believe that having children is commanded by deity and any environmental offsets are not an issue because the Second Coming is soon and the earth will be cleansed by fire at that time anyway. Besides, God created the earth, he would never let man destroy it.

There just is no real discussion to be had with somebody who believes those things. Fortunately, higher education and sex ed are highly correlated with lower birth rates, so I'd push for those if you're looking to reduce birth rates - even in Mormonism or other religions.

Odd. I wonder how many not so thoughtful people think your way and act upon it. To the extent there is a genetic component to "thoughtfulness," or even a trait that can be nurtured by other thoughtful people, is the extent that thoughtfulness will be selected against and disappear.

I have 4 and I really hope that makes you feel bad.

If everyone adopted your rationale, the human race would go extinct. We haven't gone so far that we are indifferent to the survival of our own species, have we?

I am a father myself and don’t think you are a “bad person” or anything like that. But seriously, we have no shortage of humans - you are not doing mankind a favor by having lots of kids.

And how are you determining the correct number of people and on what criteria? Or do we take your word for it?

Get in car. Drive to work. Wait in line on the freeway for opportunity to use freeway to get to work. While we're waiting in line; burning fossil fuels and contributing to carbon buildup in the atmosphere; which is essentially permanent. All - to spend a day earning imaginary money - whose value is arbitrarily and capriciously set by others.

Seems like a criteria for overcrowding to me.

That's not very specific. What about your scenario indicates overcrowding?

How is bearing children destroying the ecosystem?

Any idea how many dirty diapers a baby produces? We don't use cloth diapers with our daughter, so those go to the landfill.

She drinks milk. That comes from cows. Cows are bad for the environment. By having another person on the planet, we need that much more milk.

> We don't use cloth diapers with our daughter, so those go to the landfill.

Isn't that simply a consequence of how people today and in the past decided to solve these problems in general? This issue is not limited to diapers.

> Cows are bad for the environment.

Interesting, so cows are not part of the environment? What separates things from being part of the environment and not being part of it?

All things that are bad for the environment are part of the environment.

Because children are people and people by necessity must displace natural ecosystem fixtures to survive.

Does this mean the natural ecosystem fixtures are more valuable than people?

The problem is that our current pace of ecosystem destruction in order to satisfy people is not sustainable.

Does deciding not to bear children solve this problem?

Uh...yes?

Every child that's born is a child that will eventually need their own shelter. Will probably drive their own car. Will need food.

The best way to reduce your carbon footprint is to not have children.

https://www.npr.org/2017/07/19/537954372/want-to-slow-global...

But doesn't that lead to the extinction of the human race? What good is it for mankind to save the environment if it sacrifices itself in the process?

If everyone stopped having children, well yeah. But you and I both know that that's not going to actually happen.

All I'm saying is that our current population growth is unsustainable and we're killing the environment. Until we adapt to only consume renewable resources, or at least sufficiently reduce our consumption of non-renewables, and stop pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, the best thing to do is slow down reproduction.

Social Security is one example of the young subsidizing the old. Medicare is another. Old folks homes are another.

Seems to me there is ample evidence of the young supporting the old.

Consider what your aged life would be like if everyone suddenly elected to not reproduce. What would it be like to be 70, when the youngest person is 60?

Clearly, the young support the aged.

Clearly, the young support the aged.

The young, by definition live in a world built by their elders, benefiting from all the infrastructure and institutions they created. So it’s not nearly as one-way as you think. Any care of the elderly is merely a part payment on that debt the young owe them.

Cultures are going extinct due to lack of children. A good number of cultures in Europe and East Asia have close to 1 child per woman, meaning that the population is cut in half with every generation.

Those cultures will be gone forever.

In many ways parents are subsidizing the childless.

My tax bill sure indicates otherwise.

I decided at an early age not to have kids - at 12-13 I figured out that I was not suitable to be a father - one, I wanted the chain of crappy childhoods to stop with me, and two I have various conditions that I believe are largely genetic - I didn't want to pass those on.

No, your tax bill does not indicate otherwise. Credits for children are a tiny, tiny fraction of tax subsidies for people in lower income brackets, and property taxes are generally quite low and cover much more than schools.

Even if they were a huge fraction, you're considering one single axis. You're not considering population support or economic contributions by and on behalf of children, both of which are arguably much more significant than tax bill distribution.

> Credits for children are a tiny, tiny fraction of tax subsidies for people in lower income brackets

The tax-funded support for “people in lower income brackets” are themselves very much slanted toward support for parents with children, largely because the American public is broadly fine with blaming poor adults for their condition, but somewhat less so for children in poverty.

The tax code is geared up to help people who are married and have children - my married friends pay 20% less than I do, my married friends with kids pay even less then they do. I take umbrage with this.

You benefited when you were a child. You took those benefits. You might say it wasn't your choice, but your parents made that choice on your behalf.

Having benefited yourself, you shouldn't be bothered that others also benefit. It is only fair.

BTW, you can earn a 6-figure income and have negative taxes. The key is to have a double-digit family. This is what I do. Nothing is stopping you from doing likewise.

How exactly does one have a double-digit family?

2 parents and 8 kids?

Everybody now paying taxes once was a child. Without children no one would be paying taxes.

I don’t know about America, but it’s the childless that subsidise the parents in the UK. Having kids is a massive draw on the state - the vast majority of people go from being net contributors to net drains on the public purse when they have kids.

Given that parents need to buy diapers, kid clothes, and other stuff needed by babies, if UK still has VAT I do not believe that parents are «net drains».

Those things are specifically exempt from VAT

Really?! Then I should consider moving from Italy to the UK! (I am a father of three, and here there are no exemptions at all for diapers, baby food, bottles, and so on. VAT here is 22%.)

On the other hand, having children isn't exactly cost-free, and society needs the next generation around to support the previous in old age.

There are plenty of choices in life that are hard to assess until you're fully invested in them.

Choosing a life partner? Choosing a stock? Scoping a programming project??

Choices in the above can seem great at first - but maybe they turn out better over time, maybe worse, probably a roller-coaster mixture of elation, unknowns, and heartache.

But you'll never fully experience them until you've fully lived through them.

That’s a good point, but it worries me that with just a change of nouns we could be talking about taking a speedball, taking bloody revenge, or eating rocks.

Do you apply same restrictions on other livestyle complains? Should people never complain about job, because they picked it up voluntary? What about social club, Facebook that read voluntary and complain about constantly and so on and so forth.

What it us about parenthood that makes people think we should just present only happy side of it constantly and ever talk about side we don't like or cost us?

> What it us about parenthood that makes people think we should just present only happy side of it constantly and ever talk about side we don't like or cost us?

This seems like an unfair interpretation of the above. Absolutely talk about the parts you don't like, just acknowledge that you followed a path of your own choosing (whether the consequences were expected or not).

Kind of like smokers getting cancer, or needle-sharers getting HIV: the social context requires a little humility.

Complain about your job or management, but acknowledge each time that you have chosen it. Complain about Facebook, but acknowl edge each time you sign up voluntary ...

No one sane expect smokers sick with cancer to acknowledge they smoked each time they want talk about cancer. For christ sake, seriously.

And I don't even think that having children is like sharing needles. There we are getting into category where you imply that having children is somehow morally bad (or is it having children while not being 100% happy about every aspect of child raising? )

I feel like parents are humans too and some times just need to express their emotion. It doesn't mean they regret their decision necessarily. They might just be going through a difficult day or time. We could use a little more empathy.

Again, I think you're being uncharitable and attacking straw men.

One doesn't need to "acknowledge... each time they want to talk" (whether it's smokers, needle-sharers, parents, or whatever). Rather, it's just a matter of how one phrases things, e.g. avoiding a sense of entitlement or being condecending.

> And I don't even think that having children is like sharing needles.

I think it it, in precisely the sense that I mentioned it: that it's avoidable, and may have severe negative consequences. No more, no less.

> There we are getting into category where you imply that having children is somehow morally bad

Not at all. I wasn't passing moral judgement, I was giving examples of situations where someone complaining about problems they're suffering may have to choose their language carefully, to avoid being judged harshly in a social context. No more, no less.

> or is it having children while not being 100% happy about every aspect of child raising?

Again, that's a straw man.

You come from a very long line of parents that reproduced. It's a biological imperative to do so (i.e., we think we have a choice, but in fact have much less than we think we do).

To help you understand how absurd your position is, consider if even one of the hundreds of thousands of reproduction "decisions" that are in your line had not been made, you wouldn't be here to express your point of view that it's "just a personal choice."

> It's a biological imperative to do so (i.e., we think we have a choice, but in fact have much less than we think we do).

I chose to get a vasectomy. I'm 35 and have never in my life desired reproducing. I do not feel that supposed biological imperative.

I do feel the imperative to have sex, but having sex and producing babies are entirely different things. You can have one without the other.

> To help you understand how absurd your position is, consider if even one of the hundreds of thousands of reproduction "decisions" that are in your line had not been made, you wouldn't be here to express your point of view that it's "just a personal choice."

This is not a convincing argument.

> What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice

In that respect maybe it is not that different than climbing a mountain, or achieving mastery in a fencing or long distance running. Would you tell those people "I resent your complaints, you brought this upon yourself, should've stayed home and bother bother with your marathon running" say when they the talk about how hard it is and how they got injured or weather was bad.

Caring for and raising children is a sacrifice. It’s a difficult and unpaid 24/7 job that you’re locked into for 18 years.

You’re constantly putting the needs of a tiny human ahead of your own. If you do a good job then they benefit far more than you do. And they won’t realise the extent of your efforts until (or unless) they have children of their own.

Seeking praise is pointless. But it’s driven by the same themes the parents in the article talk about.

While I agree with you, it is a personal choice, I think that’s not the framing most people are in.

For instance my parents strongly believe that having kids is a duty, the more the better. They will brag about having 4 kids and they’ll tirelessly push married people to make them (the endless “is it on the way yet ?”). I also saw a lot of people of their age care a lot about the family lineage not disappearing. Some even atrocely cared about the name being carried on.

Even trying to have serious discussions about it just ends in “that’s how the thing have been, that how they should be” kind of rethorics.

I sympathize with couples that have their surroundings constantly repeat them they should have a baby, and wouldn’t fault them for thinking it was part of their duty to do so.

What if it something that you thought you wanted, but it turned out to be much more than you bargained for? I agree than people shouldn't act like they're making noble sacrifice (because for all intents and purposes, it was your choice), but sometimes you can only prepare so much a priori.

My wife and I spent years talking (as a married couple) before having a kid, because as stated elsewhere in the comments, it's the biggest commitment you make in your life.

If you're a good person (sweeping generalization), having a kid is pretty much the only thing you can't walk away from in your life.

> What I do resent is when parents try to make their struggles look like some sort of noble sacrifice they've performed for the greater good, when ultimately having children is just a personal choice they made.

This really gets me.

We as a society do not need more children. Popping out a baby is not an accomplishment. Hell, most babies these days are accidents. It seems strange to me that someone would choose to do something that a lot of people do accidentally, and then expect some sort of recognition for their supposed sacrifice.

We as a society simply don't need more babies. The "sacrifice" is unnecessary at best, and possibly egotistical at worst.

If we don’t have more children, we have population decline which comes with huge negatives. The economy contracts. Social Security implodes, etc.

New generations innovate, and they take care of the aging.

Having kids is actually a huge sacrifice on the part of the parents that ultimate benefits society as a whole.

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