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Comment by girzel | Hacker News Reader

I work in publishing, and tangentially with children's books published inside and outside of China. My main observation is that the Chinese market for children's books (read: parents) is totally uninterested in books produced in China. 99% of children's books published in China are imported and translated from other countries, mostly the US.

In other words, the (politically-influenced) Chinese publishing industry is producing didactic children's books, but Chinese consumers are not interested in those books at all.

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What's published in China is amusing. Current events are touchy politically, so there's a vast amount of wuxia. See any Chinese drama site. Novels about business success are popular.

China has explicit political movie censorship. The golden dragon logo at the beginning is the "passed by censor" label. The Chinese army even produces an occasional feature film. "Sky Fighters", is a ripoff of "Top Gun", but worse. The USAF, especially the Strategic Air Command, used to do stuff like that in the 1950s. See "Strategic Air Command"[1], with Jimmie Stuart (considered good) or "Bombers B-52" (not so good).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGjyH2ulsCk

There are always a tons of fans for Wuxia in China for probably hundreds years. Supply follows demand. And Internet-literature is a big thing in China. There are also a lot of Wuxia or quasi-wuxia published online. I wonder which country don't censor movies? China actually has quite a few political-metaphor movies up. Not to mention recently one filmed by Feng XiaoGang. I am not saying China bureau of movies production are doing a good job. In fact they have been complained quite a a lot. China still hasn't implement a good classification system. Quite a few films got cut because it has to suit majority(including children) which really annoys people. As your last film example, many Chinese viewers don't think that film is good.

That’s a literal Gish Gallop of propaganda, especially: I wonder which country don't censor movies?

Tu Quoque is boring.

Okay, Sorry for my `Gish Gallop`. I am not trying to deny the censorship, in fact it's to blame. And there are better examples to follow. many people dislike that and I pointed out problems in censorship and regulations of movies production in China. But I have seen quite a few directors in China who can't produce great films then just blame the system while others successfully put political metaphors in films which is more artful than name-calling.

> I wonder which country don't censor movies?

The USA, for one.

The MPAA does rate movies, and most theater chains choose not to run movies rated to contain extreme violence or sexuality, but anyone can privately film and distribute a political (for example) film that might embarrass the US government.

Many such movies also run in theaters- see Fahrenheit 9/11, Citizenfour, All the President’s Men, etc.

I've been thinking about this lately.

Even though our government doesn't censor us, our society does censor a lot of unpopular opinions. For example, the neo-Nazis who were publicly shamed and then subsequently lost their jobs. And the Google employee who was fired after writing that email about sexual harassment. I've seen other cases, too, but can't think of them off hand. And I should point out that I'm not defending those views (I think they're shameful), I'm pointing out that they were publicly humiliated and punished for sharing them.

Practically speaking, is there much difference between government backed censorship and online mob justice censorship? Each one will ruin your life, just in a different way.

> Practically speaking, is there much difference between government backed censorship and online mob justice censorship?

1. You can't sue a mob for justice

2. You can't convict or fire a mob.

3. You can move to somewhere where the mob isn't.

More neutrally:

4. Mobs are crowd-sourced. Government censors are appointed experts of some sort.

5. One rouses and incites a mob. One lobbies and corrupts a government.

6. Mobs aren't constrained by things like double jeopardy. The U.S. government is.

7. Mobs tend to be more situational than government rules. Mobs don't care about boring things, niche things, technical things, or sympathetic perpetrators.

You can’t sue the power structure of the PRC.

Ditto for 2, and certainly 3 unless you have resources, luck, and manage to get away.

4. Experts. In what? Toeing the party line?

5. True, although mobs are easier kick off than new patterns in govt.

6. Neither is the PRC.

7. True.

Edit: typo correction of “can” to “can’t”

You can petition the PRC power structure (e.g. complain about your local government in Beijing). If you are lucky, you won’t wind up in a black jail.

And didn’t the term “Human flesh hunt” start out as a chinese one?

My bad, that was supposed to be a “can’t”

Ok got it. You can try anything in the PRC, it’s just that the results are either unpredictable or perversely predictable.

Online mobs can make you lose your job if you're working for a company with sufficient media exposure and insufficient backbone, but governments can make you disappear whenever they please. Practically speaking, that's a huge difference.

> Online mobs can make you lose your job if you're working for a company with sufficient media exposure and insufficient backbone, but governments can make you disappear whenever they please. Practically speaking, that's a huge difference.

That's the traditional explanation, but does it apply any more now that we have the internet?

With the internet, any screw up or faux pas can cause worldwide publicity for any business. They can theoretically stand up for their employee's free speech, but in reality it's so rare that it's almost not worth considering.

At the same time, it's more difficult for the government to silence people due to the Streisand effect.

The online mob doesn't really have the resources to get publicity to more than a few things at a time, so although some people will always be hit, most will be safe. I'm not saying that mob censorship is harmless, just that it doesn't reach the scale of governments, who have actual boots on the ground.

The Streisand effect happens when you try to make people shut up about something but don't actually have the power to make them shut up. So of course they'll just talk about that unsuccessful attempt, after all there's no downside. House arrest/public humiliation/bullet through the head? Try talking about that in any way critical of the censors and you could be next. That won't actually inhibit "dangerous" ideas, of course, but it's pretty effective at making everyone stop talking about them.

Governments can disappear you if they’re weak, if they’re strong they vilify you and toss you in prison.

One big difference is that the unpopular opinion can still be allowed to exist.

In other words, it is still possible to find neo-Nazi social media in the US. (Yes, there's been some issues on this front with some of the more visible sites due to certain Internet corporate CEOs getting "caught up in the mob", but organizations like the EFF are allowed to push back with counter-opinion -- https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/08/fighting-neo-nazis-fut...). It is still possible to find the Google employee manifesto online, as well as social media both sympathetic to these opinions and completely disagreeing with them and anything in between.

In many cases of government censorship, unpopular causes and opinions simply disappear. They for all practical purposes don't exist. You are not allowed to talk about them at all, at least in public.

That's a better example to follow, China lacks of a sensible rating system for long time.

Interesting enough, media that has to work around censorship is often more interesting. Restrictions breed creativity: East German (political) jokes were far more spicy than West German (political) jokes.

There was a French group, Oulipo, that imposed weird restrictions on themselves in order to reproduce this effect. See eg 'A Void', a novel without the letter 'e'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulipo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Void

Not censorship per se, depending on how you understand censorship, but three letter agencies in the US often have an "advisorial" function in the production of many movies, particularly war movies. Most of the time you will even find them credited.

Their influence usually shows itself in how america/troops/wars are portrayed, such as negative language being replaced by neutral statements - but sometimes there are bigger changes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hollywood-cia-washington...

In the U.S., participation with these agencies is entirely optional. My understanding is that they offer access to government locales, equipment, and consultants in exchange for a positive portrayal. This would seem to me a fair trade, and one which the audience is able to perceive and assess.

In China and similar countries, good luck portraying the army in a negative light, whether you ask for their cooperation or not.

> In the U.S., participation with these agencies is entirely optional.

If you want your film to include footage on a warship, or with tanks, or etc you'll need the armed forces to cooperate, and they only cooperate on films that make them look good.

Better CGI and good set design is making this less of a problems.

This isn't really a problem of censorship, but it is propaganda.

What about The Forecaster, a film about Martin Armstrong? It's critical of banks, government corruption and was effectively denied viewing in the US short of downloading pirated copies for years despite being successful globally. Initially, Netflix was set to stream the documentary but suddenly reversed that decision, yet other movies you list were not blocked.

Censorship in the US may be more subtle than elsewhere, but it is present. Banks and governments have their methods which have become disturbingly effective. Also consider SJWs who effectively drown out or ostracize anyone with a differing viewpoint - you are free to think whatever you want, as long as you agree with us!

http://imdb.com/title/tt4103404/ https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/corruption/cen...

I find it hard to believe that the reason it was dropped was due to criticism of banks and allegations of government corruption, given there is copious amounts of other films with the same subjects available, including on Netflix.

You're right, it isn't just the criticism.

Armstrong advised Reagan, Thatcher and numerous other administrations over the past few decades. He has been behind the curtain.

His computer system has been accurately forecasting long-term socio-economic trends and their apices since the eighties. This is what the banks wanted.

When Armstrong turned the banks down, they sought to forcibly acquire the software and utilized government to squeeze him. The story continued on with illegitimate confiscation of billions and civil rights transgressions as Armstrong was jailed for years over contempt of court because there were no legitimate charges that could be brought against him.

So yes, there's definitely a history that makes Armstrong a target. The deeper you dig, the more it makes sense why The Forecaster was effectively blocked in the US and others have no problem.

> Also consider SJWs.....

"SJWs"? Really? Does HN really need to devolve into KiA, TRP or T_D?

It's on iTunes, Amazon, and Vimeo. It's a pay-per-view documentary.

Yes, within the past few months if I recall correctly. It was unavailable in the US on any streaming service before that.

> I wonder which country don't censor movies?

Almost all democracies. I'm sure someone can point to a little "censorship" (e.g., children can't watch porn), but that's not the same thing at all - just like a cough isn't the same as lung cancer. When Disney released a film that was complementary of the Dalai Lama, the Chinese government banned all Disney movies - that's censorship.

The claim that 'everybody does it' is an old ploy for dictatorships.

> I'm sure someone can point to a little "censorship" (e.g., children can't watch porn),

The US censorship model is sneaky; instead of official state censorship, we have “voluntary” “private” censorship by industry groups, but when government isn't satisfied with the results, it threatens official regulation (either directly of content or at least marketing of certain content, or punitive regulation of other aspects of the relevant industry’s business), drags industry execs in for public shaming, and engages in similar pressure tactics until the industry aligns censorship practices with government preferences. In this manner, it imposes censorship, satisfies the segment of the electorate seeking government action on unwelcome content, but mostly maintains a façade of refraining from government censorship.

Again, not at all the same thing.

UK and India does censor movies. I think perhaps very many democratic countries do.

Internet literature is so big in China the most recent IPO is Tencent's e-book department.

https://qz.com/1123570/china-literature-ipo-tencents-e-books...

Not children-specific, but just to illustrate the amount of domestic production for domestic consumption.

Strategic Air Command's cold war propaganda is pretty campy but the porn shots of the B-36 and B-47 are an aviation buff's wet dream. That youtube video is just a small taste.

Also that movie taught me the proper pronunciation of "Thule" (it's too-lee).

The American military outsourced their feature films: they happily lent equipment for filming to movies they approve of.

(Not saying it's the same as China. It's just an interesting system to subtly get sympathetic portrayals.)

I'm pretty sure they don't lend the equipment out for free. Does it work differently in other countries?

I know the U.S. military sees it as marketing and actively participates. I don't know if that includes free equipment.

Not quite free, but not anywhere near cost either. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/25-years-later-remem...

You can see this in England, with shows like Top Gear constantly featuring the latest and greatest military equipment for wow-shows.

Clarkson's Top Gear is not a movie where the story has military elements, so that's not quite the same (for example Independence Day is about the US military fighting aliens, so they do need military elements).

For (old) Top Gear I wonder if they have some sort of patriotic elements, because Clarkson is a friend of David Cameron. Maybe the government/military offered them access to make a boys' show, with the unmentioned quid-pro-quo of making the show a bit of propaganda for the UK government/military.

> Jimmie Stuart

'Jimmy' or, preferably, James Stewart. With a more than decent real-life airforce career alongside all the movie stuff. And when war came, used his Hollywood connections to get into, not out of, active duty.

What's really interesting about SAC is that it's less than 10 years away from "Dr Strangelove" (1964). I think the thought of another "1960s" keeps most governments of the world up at night.

> The Chinese army even produces an occasional feature film.

The US Army just has a target audience with different cultural tastes, so it makes FPS video games, instead (as well as supporting favorable movies.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army

America's Army is for recruiting. China still has a draft.

China has conscription but doesn't use it. It’s force is completely volunteer ATM (you do have mandatory military training for college students, but it isn’t militarily useable). The PLA has to recruit also, many Chinese movies and TV shows are produced to that goal.

Our military also funds movies and sports to promote patriotism and nationalism. They paid the NFL to add the pledge of allegiance before games... we do lots of creepy stuff.

There are many great children's books written over the centuries by authors around the world so it is great that Chinese children read them. Also stories from a foreign land are particularly stimulating to children's imaginations.

Can you justify your claim "99% of children's books published in China are imported and translated from other countries, mostly the US"? The claim seems exceedingly silly. Not only is the 99% number impossible I am also pretty sure US is not the majority source of children's books in China. See http://www.shuku.net/novels/mulu/ert.html . The only US book on the list I recognize is "The Wizard of Oz".

> The claim seems exceedingly silly. Not only is the 99% number impossible ...

The silliest thing ever is to treat obvious hyperbole as if it is a precise, literal assertion.

Should I read "mostly the US" as hyperbole as well? I would not hold the exactitude of 99% against the original poster but what is the non-hyperbole number I should be taking home from the quoted comment? Or is it your opinion that there is no way to dispute a claim because hyperbole is involved and anyone who comments with hyperbole gets an automatic pass?

> I would not hold the exactitude of 99% against the original poster but what is the non-hyperbole number I should be taking home from the quoted comment?

I actually very much dislike hyperbole for this very reason; it prevents substantive discussion and the reader gains little for it. Hyperbole really expresses only the author's emotional reaction, and it's even vague about that; it charges the discussion with emotion. If I were benevolent dictator of my own forum, hyperbole would be banned.

May I ask you to elaborate on 99% part? Chinese parents are as anxious as other parents in many economies. That's why they buy books even their children don't read, they will read those for them... And buying children anime books from the West or Japan has little to do with politics, it's more about story-telling. Chinese editors still need to make their work more funny and engaging.

Yes, but parents and kids are interested in classics like Journey to the West, of which there are endless versions for every age group.

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