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Comment by ajuc | Hacker News Reader

Well, half the Old Testament is one tribe murdering another, and God either doesn't care, or support one side (usually the victorious one - if it's Jews it's because they were nice, if it's not Jews it's because Jews were sinful at that particular moment :) ).

He tells Saul (if I remember correctly) to murder subjugated people, women and children included, so at that moment to any sane person God is actually acting as a force of evil, corrupting the believers, who wanted to save them (for a life of slavery most probably, but still, better than murder).

He makes a bet with the devil over Hiob's life, and kills his entire family (or allows it to be killed, same thing) just to see that Hiob's indeed faithful (which he knew beforehand because he's omniscient, but whatever).

God of Old Testament even calls itself "jealous", and tells people he "punishes sins of ancestors on X generations" (3 or 4 if I remember correctly).

Kinda angry and evil, isn't it?

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> half the Old Testament is one tribe murdering another

That hasn't changed, it's only gotten worse. A huge percentage of this world kills, riots, and is violent. Is God supposed to handcuff everyone?

God's primary purpose isn't to keep everyone safe in a little sealed box where they can't hurt anything. However, one day he will put an end to to sin and evil once and for all. The reason he doesn't is that he continues to extend mercy to as many people as he knows will take it before that time comes.

(Also, tribe is the wrong word. Many of these countries/civilizations had millions of people in them with wars being fought between armies of hundreds of thousands of soldiers.)

A huge percentage? I reckon the vast majority of individual people alive today are pretty peaceful.

God's primary purpose is as a tool for the religious ruling elite to exert control over the followers. Do Man's desires align with God's will, or does God's will conveniently align with Man's desires? Seems we always have only Man's word on the matter.

It is impossible for men to have written the bible. It was written over ~1,500 years by about 40 different people across multiple empires and contents - yet it's unified in the story. It's over 20% prophecy, much of which was has already come to pass about nations or events (some of which features Israel).

There is no book that even comes close to the complexity required for the bible to have been written.

> It is impossible for men to have written the bible.

That's quite the claim, since historical evidence sure seems to show every known biblical text was scribed by human hands.

> yet it's unified in the story

That's certainly open to interpretation, to say the least. Many of the story elements and arcs can be found in cultures that pre-date Christ.

> much of which was has already come to pass about nations or events

Over thousands of years one can find examples for any broad prophecy.

Once again we're left with nothing authoritative on the matter except the word of Man, that we're apparently expected to take on faith alone.

> show every known biblical text was scribed by human hands

Yes, the bible itself claims this (2 Peter 1:21). I was referring to men coming up with the idea and colluding over a millennia.

> Many of the story elements and arcs can be found in cultures that pre-date Christ.

That is because everything in the New Testament (including Christ's life) was an extension of what had already be told for thousands of years earlier.

> Over thousands of years one can find examples for any broad prophecy.

These aren't broad prophecies. They are specific accounts of events such as the destruction method of Tarshish by a Greek commander (Alexander the great) or the name of a future Persian King who would command the rebuilding of the temple (Darius the Persian) or the return of Israel as a nation after Daniels 69 weeks had elapsed, etc...

The most extensive prophecies are focused on Jesus himself and what he would do and how he would die (Isaiah 53, etc..).

> I was referring to men coming up with the idea and colluding over a millennia.

How do you reconcile with the fact that there are hundreds of texts and stories that have selectively excluded by human hands to create what we today call the bible?

If my priest gives me a bible and tells me "This is the word of God", but admits that over the last 2000 years there have been several councils were certain texts and stories were added and removed, and that archaeologists have found previously unknown gospels not included in the bible, what am I supposed to think?

I am afraid the sheer volume of research on the topic of the canon of scripture is more than I'll ever be able to consume. There are hundreds of books and videos on the subject. If you are really curious then you should probably check them all out. icr.org, carm.org, gotquestions.org, etc...

I'll add that we have thousands of copies and fragments of the bible with nothing more than small changes in spelling. If anything was changed, we would know from the differences in the copies (unless every nation all colluded to have the same bible from day one). In fact, even the Jews would have to have been in on it even though they deny Jesus is their Messiah. (See the dead sea scrolls)

I only know of one "council" where they "decided" on what was in the bible. The Council of Nicea, where they affirmed what was already accepted as canon.

Is there any proof these prophecies were written before the events occurred? The simplest explanation is that they were written after the events then pointed to as prophecies to prove the texts are prophetic. That would align very well with what we know about the world and the deceit Man is perfectly capable of.

While many people collectively editing and revising a text over millennia is certainly impressive, there is nothing impossible about it nor is it on its own proof of anything supernatural.

Yes, that's a common explanation. https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/w...

That doesn't really answer anything. I'm not debating that Jesus existed. But using the Bible as evidence for the Bible doesn't hold water.

More than 99% of all people alive today never murdered anyone, nor participated in any war. Slavery is very rare. In most of the world there are at least partly objective court system, with the possibility to appeal.

In what way exactly things got worse according to you?

And the important thing about Old Testament is - it portraits wars of Jewish states/tribes as either having the support of the God (because they were doing what God said to them, so they deserve to enslave/kill the pagans and take their land), or going against the God and thus - losing (so the pagans got the support of the God in the murdering or enslaving the Jews as a punishment).

God's purpose is whatever he chooses, but if you do such things you aren't "good" and "loving". You're basically playing Starcraft with people as units. It's evil.

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