Hacker News Reader

Comment by Synaesthesia | Hacker News Reader

What’s interesting is when LSD was first discovered and popularized with psychiatrists, it was considered a “model psychosis” - inducing a temporary state of psychosis which researchers could use to study mental problems. That theory was discredited in the late 60’s when it got banned (it was one of the reasons why it was supposed to have no medical value).

I believe there’s a lot of truth to it, from my experience it totally matches a mini psychotic event.

View on HN

I can't speak to the similarity psychosis, never having experienced it.

But, in a similar vain, I think anyone who has ever had an experience with LSD was simply blown away by the "Deep Dream" visualisations. The similarity is so obvious that one cannot escape the conclusion that neural nets are actually similar to the brain in some profound ways, especially if you consider that "Deep Dream" was an open-ended experiment, not intended to create such effects.

I'd second that. The strongest sensation of that kind I had when mixing 4-Aco-DMT (a psilocin prodrug) with LSD. I suddenly saw eyes in random places. Was fun - not creepy at all.

Psychosis is an umbrella term that covers a wide range of experiences and causes.

LSD might simulate some of these experiences, but all it really tells researchers about is LSD induced psychosis.

You're right but that doesn't mean it can't be useful for understanding psychosis in general. Clinical psychologists could, for instance, take lsd to get some sense of what their patients experience. It wouldn't be identical, but would offer at least some reference point for what it means to be psychotic.

> I believe there’s a lot of truth to it, from my experience it totally matches a mini psychotic event.

Jan Irvin at GnosticMedia has an interesting article about this "Entheogens: What’s in a Name? The Untold History of Psychedelic Spirituality, Social Control, and the CIA" [0] (note: this is part 4 of a 5-part series).

"Today there are many names for drug substances that we commonly refer to as “hallucinogens,” “psychedelics,” “psychoactives,” or “entheogens,” et al. But it hasn’t always been that way. The study of the history and etymology of the words for these fascinating substances takes us, surprisingly, right into the heart of military intelligence, and what became the CIA’s infamous MKULTRA mind control program, and reveals how the names themselves were used in marketing these substances to the public, and especially to the youth and countercultures."

edit: There is some interesting etymology here, Irvin claims it evolved from the word "psychotomimetic" (mimicking psychosis)

[0] https://www.gnosticmedia.com/Entheogens_WhatsinaName_Psyched...

> I believe there’s a lot of truth to it, from my experience it totally matches a mini psychotic event.

From Wikipedia: "Psychosis is an abnormal condition of the mind that involves a loss of contact with reality."

If we use this definition I'd be inclined to differ. LSD only to some extent and under certain circumstances will cause of loss of contact with reality. In my experience LSD intensifies perception and affect to such an extent that it can become overwhelming. It also alternates how we see things.

Like overclocking a CPU will make it faster and more useful until a point where starts to work unreliable.

I have the exact same reaction as you, but many of my friends don't. I'm perfectly lucid and have never lost reality, I just get very intense perception and am hypersensitive to social cues (I read too much into people's reactions).

It depends on how extreme your standard for break with reality is. Most trip reports I've read indicate a break with consensus interpretation of reality, which is consistent with psychosis. I have experienced bipolar psychosis twice, and LSD psychosis ~12 times, and subjectively they are far more similar than not. I'd say they are only barely distinguishable by subtle intangibles. Again, subjectively.

Overclocking a CPU seems to me to be analogous to a manic episode. So, not too far off to say LSD can be used to mimic a psychotic break.

Looking at the definition of psychosis:

> a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.

Based on my research, typical (and even greater than typical) recreational doses of LSD do not cause a “severe mental disorder” as described in the definition.

At “raves”, for example, lots of people are under the influence and yet they have not lost contact with external reality.

Right, that sounds more like a dissociative than a psychedelic.

i don't know, sensitivity varies. beyond-casual research at home with blindfold/stereo on resulting in hyper-real visuals and totally losing the plot on time and space and reality-vs-fantasy and knowing (or caring) who/what/where/when/why. definitely impaired thoughts and emotions and memory and logic and common sense and sensorimotor functions. fun and safe and interesting in private with a sitter. but wouldn't want to be like that alone in public, things get real weird at higher doses.

It only has that effect when they gave it to people in test trials in terrible settings like mental institution s and prisons which is why Dr Leary was adamant about set and setting

If you consider the entirety of your consciousness and the structure of thought processes and sensory perceptions.. If LSD blurs all these things, mixes and merges them a bit with excessive neural activity.. It's clear to see your sensory input will have a significant effect on the experience. Even in this regard, we can consider all the possible associations a given external stimulus will trigger in the brain.

External stimuli may be one of the few contributors of the experience that has a significant temporal persistence, possibly giving it substantial influence.

> At “raves”, for example, lots of people are under the influence and yet they have not lost contact with external reality.

Taking LSD is a strange choice for a rave, IMO; you want less visual and audio stimulation under it's influence, not more.

MDMA, MDA, 2CB, amphetamines, mephedrone and other similar substances (and their mixes in ecstasy pills) are much more rave-friendly.

Candy-flipping is not uncommon at raves - that's taking LSD with MDMA / Ecstasy.

Not very strange in the psytrance scene.

True, but I would hardly call a trance open-air a "rave". But the use of the term probably depends on local music culture.

It depends on the kind of rave.

The fast drumming beat of psytrance for example works quite well for 'carrying' the trip.

House or minimal on the other hand would be to irregular and 'cold' for LSD IMHO.

> IMO; you want less visual and audio stimulation under it's influence, not more.

What one is going to feel overwhelming on a trip or what is going to synergize is in my experience extremely individual. I find crowds of people or mostly any strangers quite discomforting while music and movies are like pure bliss.

Its only a matter of dosage. If everyone at a rave have been ingesting over 800ug you would see a very different event. Typical blotter will have anywhere between 60ug - 150ug.

I’ve taken LSD maybe 100 times and the side effects can include paranoia, confusion (I’ve thought I was in a different century), gross distortion of time, seemingly “profound” revelations, loss of ego/self confidence and of course hallucinations, many of which are similar to people suffering a psychotic break.

My friend who had a psychotic break likened it to an LSD experience.

Of course I’m only listing negative effects here, it’s not all bad, please don’t get that impression. It can be transformative and a positive experience.

Salvia does this. It causes powerful hallucinations and also is highly dissociative.

And what research is that, other than personal experiences and/or a hunch (not trying to be a jerk, just genuinely asking)?

In my experience doing LSD with a bunch of people over the years, you experience your moods, feelings, and fears.

So if you take it and you're not in a happy or content place, it's not fun.

I never had a bad trip. Maybe luckily but maybe as a result of having a lot of friends that did a lot of drugs while I abstained. I did research for a few years before trying anything and added in my own anecdotal evidence of babysitting all my friends.

LSD probably is what helped me find my place in the world and killed the crippling depression I had as a child. Likely helped my 'autistic' behaviors as well.

I don't credit it with revolutionizing my life, but it was certainly a catalyst. Of course, take this with a grain of 'salt' ;-)

You mind if I ask how old you are? When was the last time you did LSD?

Any chance you would have just grown out of the depression anyway?

I've always dealt with depression, and it got a lot better naturally when I turned about 30, although definitely a good bit still lingers. I might want to try LSD to beat the last of it, but I feel a little old to get started on a LSD project.

You're not too old. While you're tripping, you might as well be a child.

20 or 21, I'm 44 now.

No chance I would have grown out of it, everyone in my family suffers from it to varying degrees throughout their lives. They've all self medicated and pharmacologically medicated themselves for most their lives.

I still deal with depression, but not as acute as throughout my childhood. Looking back I was depressed from 1st grade onward. Not many kids in elementary school look back at preschool with melancholic feelings, at least not that I am aware of. I lived my life reliving every prior moment and the interactions. I'm on the autistic scale as well, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

I also did therapy and many other medications throughout my life as well. LSD was the only one that seemingly helped, in retrospect, beyond their initial dosing.

Have you discovered what it was in the LSD experience that let you break off from those hindrances? Were you fully aware and conscious (meditative) on it or on a rollercoaster 'tripping balls'?

I didn't take LSD for any therapeutic reason. I took it to enjoy the experience. The assistance in fixing my lifelong depression was a side effect I only realized had taken place may years later (in the last 4-5 while reading articles about how LSD/Ketamine? have helped people with depression).

It was never a rollercoaster for me. Outside of auditory and visual hallucinations you can mostly control your environment. In fact, it was always quite enjoyable. Playing music, either myself or recorded was an amazing experience, but most everything was.

I disagree and I think most researchers decided that it was not a good mental model and most moved on to amphetamines or later cannabis as a better model.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com