Toilet Paper History: How America Convinced the World to Wipe (2009) | Hacker News Reader

Toilet Paper History: How America Convinced the World to Wipe (2009)

mentalfloss.com

102 pointsshawndumas100 comments

"The question is, if toilet paper becomes a luxury item, can Americans live without it?"

The article itself appears to be part of the marketing machine. I don't at all consider toilet paper a luxury, in fact using water seems far more satisfactory and hygienic.

Japanese style washlets and european bidets are the luxury, um, end, of the market. If anything, plain toilet paper is set to be discarded as a rather unhygienic relic.

I hate traveling outside Japan! Can't live without "shower toilets" (that's how they're called here). It's hardly a luxury. It's an essential household equipment!

I feel like I'm going to barbarian lands when I leave Japan (for the sake of full disclosure, I'm not Japanese)

You could also just try using Baby wipes?

It's a bad idea to flush those. They don't degrade, and end up blocking sewers and ruin septic systems.

There are flushable versions.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Huggies-Pull-Ups-Big-Kid-Flushabl...

They sure do say that.

Don't believe them.

Its like flushable golf balls, anyone can write flushable on some packaging and sell it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgHVO-RZ8c4

Not even a little bit.

Those are generally "flushable" in the same sense that gravel is flushable, i.e. they'll fit through the bottom of the toilet but no guarantees after that.

There are flushable wipes: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N288ZXE/

I see you have never lived outside the city. Those will ruin any septic system in a hurry. Not great for city sewage. Where do yiu think wipes go when you flush them? Away? Someone has to deal with it eventually.

You're absolutely right, but the marketing for these is misleading. Many people think it's okay since they're advertised as being flushable.

They help Fatbergs to form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg

Or just soak ordinary toilet paper in water before using it. It's cheaper and doesn't congest the pipes.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A0RHSJO/ref=oh_aui_deta...

$35 and you can install it in about 5 minutes flat. It's terrific, can't go back to TP ever.

The water that comes out of my tap is about 43*F right now so no thanks....

Japanese washlets heat it up, as well as your seat. Including temperature and pressure control. Pretty awesome, I wonder why everyone else thought around 1970 that toilets are good enough now.

Anything heating up water, makes it necessary to to install a water softening plant or either the device - and/or the piping is in for a change after 15 to 25 years (depending on the lime levels in your water table).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softening

PS: Dont be fooled to buy a system with mandatory ion-exchanger cartdrige. All one needs is salt to rejuvenate the ion exchanger.

Why is it a problem to change the device every 15-25 years?

The butthole is surprisingly temperature tolerant. Can't speak for the female anatomy in this regard, however.

This. Cheap, easy, and more thorough. In retrospect, scraping off with dry paper seems silly...

Honest question: How do you dry your butt afterwards? Do you keep a butt-towel next to the toilet? Shared or one per person?

At least in Japan, many toilets also have dryer system built-in along side the bidet. Others have toilet paper for drying off.

Toilet paper. You'll still cut down your consumption (60% on average from my personal numbers) and you'll need it for visitors who are not into 'that bidet thing'

warning: TMI. The dirty clothes basket is next to the toilet. I fish something suitable looking out of that and pat dry.

I keep a lotion bottle next to my toilet. Not only is lotion cheap, it's lubricating as it cleans, so it helps make the next wipe cleaner than just using a wet wipe! Lotion ftw.

I visited Japan, they had so many awesome toilets, I had to take videos and photos of all the crazy versions and options in restaurants, public, at home etc... they are awesome.

Also, the standard toilet conserves water by adding a small hand washing sink to the top of the tank, brilliant! Google this, as it's so common sense, I can't understand why it hasn't spread wider. This kind of toilet allows for a tiny extra bathroom, without the need of a sink, and it's still sanitary.

The problem with the sink in the top is that the soap encourages algal growth in the tank. It's the same reason you shouldn't use grey water to flush.

That's interesting, but doesn't algae need light to grow? The tanks are solid porcelain. Even our fish tank, if not near a window won't grow algae, move it near a window and 2 days later it's turning green.

Also, I looked in the tank, and it was spotless. I think any concerns of growth of anything in the tank are far outweighed by the water savings. I'd guess millions of gallons a year across Japan with just this one feature.

No, some algae does not- they only need a source of energy (carbonhydrates). Google heterotrophe for more Info.

PS: That is why algae can grow in sewers.

Well, I guess maybe in Japan that is of little concern, as it's a common toilet design.

lol, I googled "heterotrophe in toilet tank from soap" and your comment came up. :P

I did some searching, I simply can't see any problems with this. Worst case it seems you have to clean your tank.

Besides, doesn't the water and soap from your sink end up in the sewer anyway? Just not seeing the problem.

Doesn't anyone know how to use the three seashells?

(Somewhat disappointingly) there is now an explanation for this:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/6688/how-did-the-t...

Something I find quite strange is how South American countries pervasively discourage people from flushing used toilet paper (instead preferring to have a little wastebasket to collect it and later throw it away in the trash). The usual account of the reason for this is that the plumbing can't handle it -- which you also hear about some old buildings in the U.S.

OK, but this norm persists even in buildings that were constructed within the last decade, like some super-recent hotels and airport terminals. Surely the plumbing there should be able to handle toilet paper, right?

That plumbing eventually connects to infrastructure constructed decades ago which presumably cannot handle the paper.

If the signs say don't flush anything down, they usually mean anything other than toilet paper and bodily excretions. Flushing tampons, pads, condoms, whatever the hell else is in your pocket is common and that is what those signs are discouraging. Toilet paper is designed to basically disintegrate once it gets wet, so it is not causing any problems in plumbing

In many Central and South American countries, flushing toilet paper is explicitly discouraged.

Same in most of SE Asia.

In Cuba, we were told in no uncertain terms not to flush toilet paper (or anything else, of course).

That may be because you are using paper which isn't designed to disintegrate upon contact with water. My anus does recall travels in South America where provided toilet products were rough and relatively ineffective. At least in North Africa and China you are living in a capitalistic market where toilet products of varying qualities can be readily had.

In Korea there are buildings that still insist you don't flush toilet paper. They usually say specifically toilet paper. My position is that it would not be dangerous to ignore this, firstly, because like you stated toilet paper is very weak when wet, and secondly, the impression that I got was that it was mostly an old-fashioned idea.

It's a bad idea. I'm not sure about Korea specifically, but a lot of developing nations have old/narrow pipes and they don't have the waste treatment facilities to deal with toilet paper. They might not have the money to install advanced filtering or even activated charcoal. Often times the waste water is just diluted and dumped into oceans or lakes.

I encounter the "toilet paper in the trash can" signs first in Moldova. The Nistru river has high levels of cholera, so it makes sense they simply do not have advanced treatment facilities.

This may have to do more with their toilet paper technology instead of their pipes. Mere rolls of wood pulp may be cheaper to produce - and importantly more likely to cause clogs - in some locales than ultra soft quilted quad-ply.

> Flushing tampons, pads, condoms, whatever the hell else is in your pocket is...

...always a bad idea.

Just because you don't hear about problems with sewer systems, does not mean they are nonexistent. Also, flushing anything that doesn't disintegrate will quickly ruin any septic tank/leech field.

And restrooms in stores along the U.S. border where people cross from Mexico often have to have signs in Spanish telling people to please flush their toilet paper and not throw it on the floor beside the toilet or go out into other parts of the store and drag trash cans into the restrooms to dispose of it in.

(This is not intended as a criticism of Mexicans, merely a comment on the fact that just across the border such practices still remain very active. Unfortunately due to the clash of expected practices, their belief that it's necessary to avoid clogging plumbing, and the U.S. lack of such a practice meaning there isn't a wastebasket beside each toilet, it often leads to rather unhygienic restrooms. In some cases, stores compromise and put wastebaskets in as well so everyone is satisfied.)

And now I know why when I was at Fleet Farm yesterday there was a trash bin in the stall. Had never seen that before.

Actually, this is the case in some Asian countries as well including parts of Japan and Indonesia.

Not uncommon in Europe either. Especially in non-renovated parts of old cities or middle-of-nowhere kind of places. Old pipes just can't handle too much paper.

As a European who has travelled through a lot of Europe, I would say it is uncommon - I don't think I've ever come across it in Europe.

Come to Baltic states or Poland then. It does happen in either super old and not yet renovated downtown buildings or roadside establishments in the middle of nowhere. Old narrow pipes just can't take paper. Especially if someone loves to fold it few times...

I think I've seen that in the UK as well, but memory may be playing tricks on me.

I've been to Poland, didn't see it there either. But I suppose I wasn't on a tour of toilets!

I'm certain I haven't seen this anywhere in the UK (I live there).

Here in Japan, I've never been to a place where you don't flush your toilet paper. In fact, they sometimes run into the opposite problem, with tourists not knowing you're supposed to flush the paper (https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/08/26/national/kyoto-...). Part of this might be because you're not supposed to flush sanitary napkins or anything but toilet paper, so there's often a bin next to the toilets for disposing of those, which I could see as confusing to someone who comes from a culture where you don't flush toilet paper.

Encountered it in Canada in the maritimes. Anywhere on the coast there were places that just had a pipe going straight into the ocean. Cafes, restaurants, you name it. There were even portable toilets set up with the pipes so they never had to be pumped. I'm guessing they don't want to see tons of toilet paper floating in the ocean I guess, but excrement is not a problem? Maybe someone else has some better insight, for instance I know in the states if it rains too much and sewage backs up a bit, the beaches get closed. Do Canadians not see a problem with high bacteria levels?

It's not an isolated thing and comes up often... Canadians just seem backward at sewage management[1][2].

[1] http://thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/canada-dumping-...

[2] https://qz.com/545922/canadas-new-government-just-approved-d...

Victoria BC dumps right in the ocean too, and there's no one who saves their tp for the dump.

The only guess I have is that Victoria uses sewage pumps somewhere in their system that shoot it into the sewer. The maritime systems are literally just a pipe so maybe more prone to clogging?

The outfall goes a fair way out into the strait though, it's not like the sewage is dumped 50m off shore

For systems that pump to the sea, the waste is pumped to large enough distance from the shore that by the time it reaches the shore again (as determined by currents and who knows what else) it is sufficiently disintegrated and decomposed to not be harmful for swimmers on the beach. Remember this from my uncle who is an engineer and works in sewage systems design, construction, and maintenance.

A distance I think he mentioned for a specific construction he was working on was 350 meters from shore, but this could be incorrect.

Same thing in Moldova. I was told it was the old plumbing that candle handle large amounts of toilet paper, but I have a feeling it might also be antiquated treatment facilities that can't deal with paper breakdown either.

OK, if we are going to talk about toilet paper and its use...I'm reminded of a Q&A column at some gaming site about 15 years ago. Someone wrote in and said that he and his friends were talking after a LAN party, and somehow the question of which direction you wipe came up. He said that he was the only one in the group who went bottom to top (bottom up). Everyone else did top to bottom (top down), and told him he was a freak.

The columnist, after wondering why the hell this topic came up after their LAN party, admitted, if I recall correctly, to also going bottom up, and she asked around the office and found that something like 90 went top down.

I was totally surprised by this question. It never occurred to me that anyone would use the opposite direction from the one I use. The thing is, I have no idea why I go the way I do...presumably I was taught that when I was young enough to need assistance, so presumably I learned to use the same direction as my teachers, but that's before my earliest memories.

If the columnist's observation, and the original questioner's observation, and what I and a friend observed when we asked around at work, hold up, then it looks like there is a heavy skew toward top down.

So...how does bottom up persist? Unless there is some factor that tends to make bottom up people tend to marry other bottom up people, most bottom up people will marry to down people, and so most children of bottom people will be raised in a mixed direction household. So shouldn't half of them take after their top down parent, and so shouldn't the bottom up fraction be decreasing?

Or...maybe some people who themselves use top down find bottom up works better when they are teaching a young child, and that leads some children of top down households to end up bottom up?

There's probably some fascinating psychology research possibilities in this, but because we generally don't wipe in public or talk about it, it gets lost in the cracks.

An abundance of anus hairs in my case. Top to bottom (back to front) aligns the hairs in such a way that they don't end up stuck in the anus hole, which I've experienced leading to itching and irritation. However, at least one front to back (bottom to top?) is mandatory in the middle of the loop for increased cleanliness, as either the skin folds or anus hairs obscure some fecal matter that the top to bottom (back to front) directionality doesn't pick up.

As I understand it, for women front to back significantly reduces the likelihood of contracting a urinary tract infection.

Having used bidets in India and Japan I can never go back to toilet papers if I've a choice.

Agreed, toilet paper falls short in nearly every regard compared to a bidet or a "bum gun". Using water is faster, cleaner, and more environmentally friendly.

Totally agreed.

This might be TMI but I never understood toilet paper. Think about it. You are taking a piece of paper and just spreading it around. No matter how hard you try it's still there. It's not clean. Gross.

In fact, the use of toilet paper has spurred a whole new industry that most other countries don't have...the ointment industry.

Washlets or bidets are far cleaner and preferred.

But when you use water - don’t you get your hands dirty? At least with paper you have paper to do all the work instead of your fingers?

You can wash your hands with a nice antibacterial soap. It's easy and very clean.

Isn't every soap antibacterial?

Yup. But some have extra stuff that poisons you and your environment too marketed to rubes as 'antibacterial'

No most are just detergents that make the dirt loose and then you wash it off using water. Anti-bacterial soap kills the bacteria before you wash them off using water.

Yes, regular soap is as good as killing bacteria as anti-bacterial soap: https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20070817/plain-soap-...

It's also bad for you and the environment, and completely unnecessary.

Don't care. I just want to clean my hands.

Soap gives you clean hands. Antibacterial soap gives you super bugs.

My hands get dirty using shit tickets. I hope you know yours do too. You do wash after rubbing a highly porous sheet of paper around in your poops, don't you?

You can use more than one piece at a time though?

Your hands do not get dirty because you just wet half the toilet paper. Only half of it really touches you, the other half is what you're holding. Either way, your bum is clean because of the water vs. using dry toilet paper.

But in the end, it doesn't beat a washlet or bidet.

Seems like that same logic would obviate the dish cloth/sponge, dust cloth, mop, and towel too. Since these devices actually work, I suspect you're thesis is kinda wrong. Needless to say, when you wipe with an "clean" cloth, some of the material you want to remove sticks to the cloth and gets removed, leaving less on the surface being cleaned. Some number of repetitions pushes the concentration down below whatever it is you want to consider your target.

It works no differently for poop or spilled gravy.

I'll take no position on the bidet vs. paper debate.

> It works no differently for poop or spilled gravy.

Let's assume you have poop on your hands, would you clean yourself with paper?

(First off, let me just say how hilarious it is that no less than two people are actually downvoting me over a bidet comment. I eagerly await more.)

If I had to, sure. You realize people did this successfully for like... always, right? Sure, detergent and water and abrasion works better, but bidets don't provide two of those three elements.

What you're really wanting to compare is getting shit (just call it shit, OK?) off your hands with only toilet paper or only water, I guess. And if I was really forced to make that choice... honestly, I'd want to see numbers. Toilet paper will 100% absolutely get things visually cleaner than mere washing at household faucet flow rates. Go try it sometime.

Water from a properly-functioning bidet certainly does provide water and water abrasion, since the pressure is far higher than an open pipe. In fact, if a bidet is activated full-blast without someone on it, it will typically reach the ceiling. Furthermore, almost all detergents will damage the anus, so that is not something desirable for this application; even those detergents that work for some people will cause excessive dryness of the skin for others.

If one is willing to use their hand to provide abrasion, merely poured water enables far superior waste removal than toilet paper. This can easily be tested by using swabs and agar plates, which I did in my childhood to my own satisfaction; I'd be surprised if peer-reviewed experiments haven't yet confirmed this, but I haven't looked for them either.

> If one is willing to use their hand to provide abrasion, merely poured water enables far superior waste removal than toilet paper.

Trouble is, you then have excrement on your hand. So perhaps there is a trade off between having a clean butthole and a clean hand?

Another benefit of toilet paper is immediate feedback - you can wipe and inspect the paper, then repeat with clean paper until you are satisfied with the result. With poured water, how do you know when you are 'done'?

'I'll take no position on the bidet vs. paper debate.'

In the UK bidets are not that common but in Spain, where I live atm, they are.

Now I'll reveal my ignorance by stating I thought one was meant to compliment the other.

Speaking of TMI, one solution (ahem) to spreading feces around is to spit on one side of the toilet paper and then wipe. After several repetitions with fresh paper/saliva, the paper will come back relatively clean and you can then use plain paper to dry.

(I learned to do this from my Asian mom. When I finally did travel to Japan, I greatly preferred their washlets to US-style toilets.)

EDIT: adjective/quantifier, punctuation, adverb

> "But as our economy continues to circle the drain, will Americans part with their beloved toilet paper in order to adopt more money-saving measures? Or will we keep flushing our cash away?"

written in 2009, so I guess we know that yeah, we will continue using toilet paper. Though more are using flush-able wipes

Which are often not flushable. [1] [2]

[1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/flushable-wipes-clogging-canad...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/nyregion/the-wet-wipes-bo...

Edit: And, just in case you wanted to know more: they cause serious damage. [3]

[3] https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/putrid-130-ton-mass-...

Also, I found this article on flushable wipes really interesting! [1]

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/10/are-wet-...

Please do not flush 'flushable' wipes. It is a lie!

Tried a Japanese toilet, I like the combination of spray + paper. Spraying alone would be gross, I'll take the paper alone over the spray alone (Japan seems to agree at least with public toilets that don't have sprays). It's just like your hands not being clean until you dry them. But really any method that doesn't use soap is leaving you dirty until you can shower.

What I don't get is why anyone wants to take cleanliness advice from cultures that still follow a "one hand for eating, one for wiping" custom.

That's not an area of your body that you should be washing with soap very often. It's a mucous membrane, and if you soap those up they get dry and irritated.

My doctor told me this when I complained of itching and irritation, and following his advice finally got me some much-needed relief.

From reading through some of the comments I really have to ask, is wiping ones ass really that complicated?

Get some single ply (not the cheap shit in public bathrooms, which is often like 0.25 ply or whatever the fuck ... fucking wax paper or some shit), fold it sheet-over-sheet using 5 sheets (defined by the perforation) for the first wipe, use 4 or 5 sheets for the second wipe, then finish off with a third wipe at 4 sheets. A wipe is one iteration through the ass_wipe_process loop, which has 2-3 sub-wipes depending on how comfortable you feel folding in half the 4-5 sheet-over-sheet folded unit.

I'm a dude, so I wipe back to front the first few sub-wipes, with a front to back followed back a back to front mixed in there somewhere. The reason for this directionality has to do with the length of my anus hair, which depends on when I've groomed it. The longer the anus hair, the more likely a front to back sub-wipe will lead to anus hairs in the butthole, causing itching and irritation. For some reason this doesn't happen with the back to front sub-wipe, so that is mandatory after a front to back, in order to realign the anus hairs.

Pro-Tip: Only groom hair close to the anus, otherwise you might end up with an ass-cyst from sitting on a groomed region where the hair can't properly grow out due to the pressure from sitting. Generally there's less constipation after grooming as though the hairs themselves bind the anus closed or some shit.

I mean seriously, just fucking take this shit seriously and do it right so you don't end up with shit in your undies stinking up the place or spreading fecal matter all over the place, getting people sick.

Factually incorrect article - fails to mention the Chinese at all, and credits America with the invention of soft toilet paper.

"From the records of the Imperial Bureau of Supplies of that same year [1398], it was also recorded that for the Hongwu Emperor's imperial family alone, there were 15,000 sheets of special soft-fabric toilet paper made, and each sheet of toilet paper was even perfumed."

Holy shit! A hand-spray is any day better (than of course a hand and mug to the rear)!

- India

The bum hose is a wonderful thing. Especially for us hairy bastards.

I'm too embarrassed to comment.

I don't understand societies with no bidet, you basically walk around with dirty asses all day long (or use wet wipes).

Middle-eastern countries have used water for centuries to clean after the act. Nowadays, they are converting to western style as it seems luxury!

No, they are not. A shouf (water hose) is always next to the toilet in Middle Eastern countries and in public facilities. Always.

Not India.

Not Arabs too.

Interesting how Maduro's Venezuelan toilet paper crisis could be solved with soap and water.

I’ve heard some Europeans call it the “sandpaper practice”.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com