Ask HN: How to you deal with a science denier?

I'll be honest: I can't even tell if the moon landing is true. Heck, I can't even tell if germ theory is true or if bitcoin supply really is limited. I don't even know if the Earth is a sphere. I don't even know if I exist in this world.

I am putting trust in a network of people who agree to these 'facts'. I trust the network that agrees on them much more than the network that disagrees on them.

People's beliefs are tethered to their network.

Read Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, for some suggestions.

Or more succinctly . . . why bother? Be kind, and move on. Your atoms will be reclaimed and recycled by the universe soon enough.

I generally agree, although I do tend to engage in discussions about evolution and climate change with those who do not believe, since I find it interesting. I no longer try to convince them they are wrong, though. I just try to get them to open up about it so that I can learn about where such beliefs come from.

The closest I get to proselytizing is saying things like "Obviously creatures didnt come into their current form by pure chance. But to think evolution by natural selection is pure chance is to misunderstand evolution." or "But don't you think it would be more beautiful and amazing and clever if God planned for and used the process of evolution to create all of the diverse life around us?" (Mostly, these discussions are with believers in a supreme being).

In essence, I offer olive branches and understanding rather than confrontation. I don't have any delusions of it actually changing anyone's mind, but perhaps I can change their perspective of those with conflicting beliefs.

To paraphrase Inigo Montoya and Westley:

"How do I convert someone in a 10 minute conversation? I must know!"

"Get used to disappointment." https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/67969177/get-us...

These are Okie Dokie moments. If they can be appreciated in other ways, focus on that.

If not, move on.

Assuming there is a real basis for ongoing conversation, try hard to understand why they deny.

The why is the key to progress.

One example is oil. People cannot internalize the idea of our world being finite. We just won't run out of oil. Technically, that is true, but the cost of extracting it will soon exceed it's value to us.

Many will get that, and then say, "yeah, but not my problem, I am here now, and... [value statement]." Or, "something will be done." (Yes, other energy!)

Samples may include:

I need there to be oil, because... Other energy sucks... I can't be bothered... Cost too much to change...

Often, this stuff is linked to ideology too. The idea of resources always being found, for example. Their politics may rest upon something like that, and if they have defined themselves in terms of those politics, science is a direct, personal threat. Literally, "who am I, and why do I bother, if that is true?"

It's hard for some people to visualize the end state after change. They may have fragmented their thoughts too. Likely have.

Those fragments, created by just accepting givens without self consistency, inclusivity, mean they can't really think outside their frames. They have no tools.

Your solutions may include:

Showing them success. Human stories they can relate to. Light on science, heavy on human existence and survival.

Emotional appeals. I'll hear you, if you will hear me. We are in this together.

Do they have icons, role models? Examples of those people coming to Jesus on something can be very powerful. A lot of social issue progress happened this way.

Who’s the bigger fool? The idiot or the one who tries to reason with them?

You can’t teach everyone. You can’t save everyone. You can’t please everyone.

If you’re forced to be around these people (because say, they’re family) use your intellect to create positive happy memories rather than battle their world views. Turn it into a joke, and just enjoy Christmas

As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't fucking make him understand something his worldview depends on him not understanding.

Maybe that's not such an old saying, but I think it makes the point. In this day and age, a lack of basic scientific understanding usually denotes that the person simply does not want to understand. Maybe they work in oil and gas and want to believe their jobs are secure, or maybe they love Donald Trump, hate 'fake news' and are tired of naysayers saying nay.

Whatever it is, you likely can't convince them. But, even more frustrating, if your ideas scare the people you're trying to convince, there is a very good chance that their brain will enter a state where it would be very hard for them to learn.

So, if I were in your shoes, I'd just enjoy the holidays and change the subject. Then, if you're still feeling feisty, go home and listen to The Idiots Have Taken Over by NOFX.

As Fat Mike says in that song (and as you allude to in another comment), "there's no hope for democracy when ignorance is celebrated." It's sad and I wish that we could all do something, but shit, it's hard enough to convince people to pay attention when they're driving...

Good luck!

remember that 'someone is wrong in the Internet' cartoon? come on, just forget it, you can't fix every idiot in the world, trying to do so will be the worst way to waste years of your life.

Do you really want to invest your time, energy and money in convincing someone, when you never see them anyway?

Change the topic. Take out your phone, show photos of your car, house, work or hobby. Screens are excellent distraction tools.

I used to be bad for trying to correct things I heard people talking about. It really bothered me when i'd hear someone saying some complete bullshit and everyone acting like this person was a genius. It never worked. They don't care and it doesn't matter. People want to live in a world they feel like they understand. If something comes along that breaks that they get scared and defensive.

I've really found it easier the older I get to just not give a shit. In the end, It doesn't matter what other people believe. If they're happy going through the world ignorant about the most basic things around them, then who am I to step in and change that? Just because you or I enjoy knowing how things really work and about the world around us doesn't mean everyone does.

That would be great if a person or a group's collective ignorance had no serious consequences. But when that ignorance puts people with like-minded ignorance in power, that no longer is benign.

Ya you're right about that. But I'm pretty sure that's one of those ongoing problems we've had since we first started putting idiots in charge of our decisions thousands of years ago. I don't think anyone's found the solution to this problem yet.

Sarcasm and ridicule.

Assuming American creationist grab a gun and ask them to prove the existence of God by asking them to ask God to stop the bullet you're about to fire at them.

In all seriousness you're wasting your time, they already know they are correct and you won't change their minds even if you can prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

Sarcasm can be viewed as hostile. It's a good way to make enemies for no reason.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and the only form of wit I possess. Just one of the many character flaws I possess which make me such pleasant company, especially at this time of year!