The Californian Ideology (1995)
metamute.org
metamute.org
So true, sad and hilarious all at once.
How would the world look if those resources had been spent solving poverty?
Regardless, the US could probably spend a little less, without destabilizing anything.
This reads like a conspiracy theory pamphlet although it brings up most of the same points we see in more modern attacks. What changed in the last ~20 years where arguments like this have hit the mainstream?
Well for one, tech is even more powerful now and old media is on its deathbed. That leads to a certain amount of sour grapes and irrational defense of non-functional business models.
Secondly I think millennials had a large part in moving away from techno libertarian ideals. Philosophy-wise they're basically baby boomers 2.0. I don't think they had enough direct exposure to that culture to understand the failings, thus are doomed to repeat them. Obviously this isn't true for everyone in that generation, just a generalization.
Millennials are moving away from techno-libertarian ideals because laissez faire attitudes towards the application of technology have placed fundamental aspects of their lives in the iron grasp of private corporations who regularly harvest their data for the explicit purpose of manipulating their behavior without their knowledge.
http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/poor-millenni...
EDIT: As an aside, I find it kind of amazing that the myth of personal responsibility for outcomes is so prevalent among the very people who take the mass-scale manipulation of user behavior for granted. How can these people who spend massive amounts of money and resources studying how to best psychologically exploit their users and who can see directly how the most minute aspects of outside influence can reliably change behavior find it so easy to then turn around and claim that people are fundamentally responsible for their own situation? Do tech libertarians really believe that they're immune to the forces they use to manipulate others on a daily basis?
And what's sad is that, for many millennials, they're stuck in a financial tar pit in large part by following the advice of their elders.
As an older millennial, my generation had two pieces of advice drilled into our skulls by boomers:
* What degree you get in college isn't that important, a B.A. will let an employer know your teachable
* Student loan debt is the best debt you can have: better than mortgage debt even
* (post dot-com crash) Don't bother trying to come a professional software developer -- it's the new textile industry: it's going overseas.
This created a generation that didn't factor in their professional or economic trajectory when choosing schools, deciding loans, etc. I had peers that walked away from free rides to college to go to their school of choice because student loans were "no big deal" -- and their parents encouraged this!
Boomers should have looked at their own jobs and paid attention how their own companies were hiring in the new economy: that new junior analyst? Makes less than the median income, despite an econ degree from top-tier school. Why did they think their kids, with a middling academics, could land the same job with a degree in english lit? The writing was on the wall even in the 90s that this wasn't a good idea: The world was more globalized and competitive. Labor's power was greatly diminished.
And the lies we're telling the next generation are
* Get a STEM degree, they're always in demand
* Become a programmer, there will never be enough programmers.
This contradicts my observation, which is that "concern over privacy" correlates with age. I see older folks ragequitting social media; the kids are sexting and snapchatting.
It's also completely ridiculous to go about blaming actual children for becoming ensnared by systems that were designed from the ground up by the greatest minds of our generation in order to capture their attention.
And why are you using Google rather than alternatives like DuckDuckGo?
Going back to my comment about baby boomers, it seems to me that the 20th century idealized lifestyle was very much backed by the technology available at the time. Mainly mass media. Bandwidth was great enough to broadcast media to a massive amount of people, but not so great as to individualize content delivery. This limited "shelf space" for content lead to a market for high end content creators.
The internet exponentially increased bandwidth and democratized (and devalued) content creation. It also created channels for publishing new types of content that require tech skills (apps, web...).
You would think that millennials would embrace the 21st century technology driven reality, but instead it seems way too many people ended up chasing high value content roles via expensive liberal arts degrees. Or at least that anti-technology combative mindset that was foreshadowed in this piece.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/students-at-most-colleg...
https://www.npr.org/2014/11/18/354196302/amid-the-stereotype...
And the notion that they should've all just got a job in tech is equally ridiculous. The frameworks and techniques I'm using right now didn't even exist when I went to college. And I'm someone who specifically approached my degree with the anticipation of future technology!
? What ?
No. Most college degrees are minted in non-professional or degrees for which one will have very little direct ability to land a job [1].
There is no rule that says 66% of society should be able to spend four years getting an English degree.
Higher education is, and always will be expensive because it requires input from others.
[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/09/310114739/what...
Yes they did. Being a self taught programmer has been a thing since the dawn of personal computing. The Homebrew Computer Club was way before millennials after all.
You see how this doesn't scale as an assumption about people and their situations, right? Just because it was possible for some people does not mean it was possible for a meaningfully large number of people. We take for granted how easy it is to train oneself as a programmer these days, but then most of us in this space have been doing this since elementary school. Who would I be today if my dad hadn't made enough money to buy me my own PC when I was in the 3rd grade?
In the 80s computing was starting to be accessible to a few. If you could access it, you could teach yourself.
In the 90s-00s (millennial time) it was even more accessible. You also had the internet to learn from and a vastly larger market for all things tech.
This trend will continue and that’s a good thing.
I think you're overstating the degree of access that large parts of the population had for furthering interest in this area.
I was a teenager in the mid-90s. This is when I read about Linux for the first time somewhere online. I remember going to bookstores and trying to find books on learning Linux, but none existed where I lived (Midwest). I managed to install MKLinux on my PPC Mac at the time, but had no idea where to go from there. Online resources were locked behind a dial-up connection and there were no computer clubs or technology meet-ups in my area. Web searches were still a joke at the time.
It wasn’t until years later that I became familiar with Unix and Unix-like systems. The change finally came as a result of widespread broadband adoption and the rise of Google. Around this time, Mac OS X had also arrived and I could finally begin learning the command line without having to dual-boot my computer.
I think you’re overstating the level of access that large parts of the population had for truly going further in the 90s. I’m highly envious of young people today and the access that they now have to resources that essentially didn’t exist when I was that age. That’s probably true for every generation, however.
My point is: fighting technological progress because it’s not happening fast enough seems weird. Should we not encourage it to happen even faster?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/8/16112368/pi...
I don't want to ask permission from the state to build something and I surely don't want them involved with my endeavor once I get going.
You can experience these effects first hand if you try to build something innovative and it takes off.
I still don't want someone dying because a faulty medical device was used on them. I think that the trade-off between ease of new innovation and public safety is a decision we have to all make collectively, and I think that the necessarily massive gulf between consumer and producer information necessitates that government be involved. Market solutions are bad for situations where there is wide information asymmetry.
The reason you haven't seen compelling evidence that regulation adds anything to technological progress is because it doesn't, almost by definition. Regulation serves to protect citizens - entrenched special interests too. That protection means funding space races and intense times of technological progress, or dampening an out-of-control feedback loop of wealth/power accumulation, or a bunch of things in between.
You're basically advocating that we step on the gas to make everyone go faster. Eventually, that link just snaps.
Yeah, I'm advocating that people find their own ride and don't slow mine down.
People normally have benefitted from the type of tech built by public and private funds, but now, there's a big fear that the current tech being built has no upside for anyone but a very small number of people. With a little more social and political grace, these fears might be assuaged, but instead, there's this zeitgeist that 'we could build such a better world if only pesky people didn't get in the way'. It's a Cultural Revolution!
> there's a big fear that the current tech being built has no upside for anyone but a very small number of people
Some people have that fear, a most people don't.
The quintessential example of an "evil" California company is Uber. That service has been absolutely trans-formative not just for myself and other tech workers, but also for the drivers. I take Uber all the time and despite the media FUD, nearly 100% of drivers say the service was life changing as they can now make money on demand, when it works for them.
I think there's a small pocket of very well connected people who are "afraid" of unchecked technological progress because they don't understand it and/or they're heavily invested in decaying power structures (old media, social scientists, politicians...). They make a lot of noise as a smoke screen to put the technologists under them in the social/financial hierarchy.
Most technologists and most regular people aren't afraid of anything and quite enjoy the fruits of our progress (cf Facebook usage).
And the truth is that even if we can educate the rest of the labor market to a point where they can meaningfully contribute to the tech industry, it would just serve to devalue tech labor. It's already happening, and as a result hiring practices are getting significantly more selective towards requiring degrees and other expensive credentials.
Technological progress is most definitely bring up the bottom rung of society. It may not be glamorous but if you go to an actual 3rd world country you can compare for yourself and see life isn't so bad here, even for the poorest.
Globalization is here to stay. Yes, certain classes of lifestyle have/will run out of gas, but that is inevitable.
the other day there was a story of a nurse in San Jose (no one special) making $260k...more than most people here I bet
Programming is declining in attractiveness and may become a McJob for most
But this didn’t drive me to be anti-free market. Far from it. The financial collapse was due to the power of the banks which existed as a government authorized oligarchy. Allowing banks monopoly over the mechanisms of monetary policy is the source of the problem. 2007 was NOT an unregulated market by any reasonable measure.
Don’t let your partisanship blind you to be grievances of those who align with neither yours nor the opposing party platforms.
What does 'more banking regulation' or 'less banking regulation' even mean? If the government enacts 'more' legislation that ossifies the practices from before financial crisis, that clearly cannot be an improvement.
Talking about more or less regulation is just setting the government up to be manipulated by the highest bidder, who can specify what changes in a way that looks like 'more' or 'less' of something. The rules need to be changed to promote honesty and not create perverse incentives. This requires /different/ regulation, and to demand specific changes. Nobody agrees on what those changes should be afaik.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Counter pint: drug markets.
The GP seems to be saying “let’s regulate these rent seekers.” I’m saying “let’s stop paying rents in the first place.”
I don't agree at all.
Millennial have more opportunity than any generation in history, by far.
They can chose what they want to do.
They can stay single, get married, be gay, be bi, whatever.
They are the first generation for whom international travel is accssible.
They are the first gen. where females can generally choose whatever career and it's not a big deal.
They are the first gen. to grow up with all the world's information at their fingertips.
They are the first gen. to not know full-scale war, mass poverty.
The 'financial system' was not 'destroyed' by anything - this is laughable. It was an accounting correction. The 1930's - this was an economic catastrophe. People were literally dying. The 2008 meltdown ... millenials were too young to be participants, it may have only affected a few jobs - and and it kept their housing costs down.
Aside from University costs (should we all be going to college?), and possibly housing bubble, they have it better materially than any generation - ever - and there's nothing to compain about.
"I find it kind of amazing that the myth of personal responsibility"
There is no 'myth' to personal responsibility, it's a core tenet of civilization.
If you finish school, learn a trade or get a relevant education, you'll get a job and live an ok life.
You are not entitled to a massive house, vacays all over the world and full on job security.
I currently am blessed to have $400/mo rent and only spend $10,000 annually in living costs. My generation is beyond blessed!
Growing up I remember finding it weird that every kid won a trophy --- just for showing up to the swim meet. I also remember how it seemed to wash the meaning of my second place trophy away.
I was lucky enough to experience failure often at a young age but I had many and by many I mean almost all of my friends never seamed to have hardships or experience failure. And I remember very very vividly when my best friend at the time was rejected and failed for the first time in his life by getting denied to the school of his choice. He was devastated. And not in a normal way. But that only lasted shortly as his mother was able to pull some strings and some connections and got him in the backdoor -- failure adverted. Had many friend like that, and the majority of the kids who biggest disappointments as a child were stupid things like their favorite pizza store closed down, or it rained on their birthday.
In any case I think and malvosenior can correct me if I am wrong. That the point is that we have a generation of kids now adults that have not been giving the tools to properly deal with failure -- and this affects there life in a very adverse way.
That all being said please read the above with the notion that I don't really like to judge groups of people, and that individuals should be looked at as just that -- an in individual. But what I am saying is that if I were to make a classification that did fit this "never learned how to fail" notion I am sure I could find more than a hand full of people who I would classify with said trait.
Now clearly aallevich is talking of his/her experiences and they are most certainly valid. But what I think would be more healthy is to unyoke your life experiences from that of a "Millennial" and own it for who you are and how you became to be. From there you can then actually start to address the issues that you feel are holding you back and likely come out on top. As long as you look at it as a "us" problem it will always be too big of an issue for you to overcome by your self. Don't let a calcification dictate who you are.
Your friends, I assume, were rich kids, or at least comfortably middle-class. The problems my friends dealt with in high school weren't trivial. They dealt with divorce, drug addiction, alcoholic parents, unwanted pregnancies, struggles with poverty, bullying... To me the notion that they never had to learn how to deal with failure is ridiculous. The class gap is enormous, and I've lived a life where I've been intimately acquainted with both sides of it.
Besides, it's not me I'm worried about here. I'm worried about the people around me. I'm one of the lucky millennials who has a tech job. It's my friends who are struggling to eat.
The problem is that the things you speak you do so as if they are not extraordinary -- these are things that all walks of people have to deal with, rich or poor (minus the poverty one). These also are not personal failures, and are not the type of failures I am talking about.
And no, the perception of my friends situation has nothing to do with my personal situation. These are reflections I had long after the situation and emotion removed from the conversation.
If you are fine -- that is awesome -- then please pass on to your friends to let their group identity keep them down. There are many jobs -- maybe not the one they want to do, or thought they wanted to do -- that today with 2 years of cheap training can bring in some real cash.
I will take my brother as a example. He dealt with EVERY ONE OF THE THINGS on your list, every last one! And today he is successful at what he does, but man does he have to work hard- much harder than I do (I am in tech as well). He took classes to be come a AC repair man, and now runs his own company. Did he make shit money at first? For sure, everybody does, but as he gained skill and saved money he was able to finally go out on his own and now has 6 people working for him. Not once did he say "I can't because ... I was bullied, I can't because ... I grew up on food stamps, I can't because ... my father was a abusive alcoholic, and I can't ... because my parents divorced (twice)", I can't because just are not words in his vocabulary.
And you sort of prove my point about some thing when you bring up that THOSE experiences, the things that many many many successful people experience are the things you sight as keeping your friends down today.
While horrible life experiences are some times out of our control, how you deal with them and what you do next is.
But I'm not concerned with personal motivation here, I'm concerned with systemic issues that need to be addressed, and that I believe can be addressed. Personal motivation is a non-sequitur.
The idea that if people in a disadvantaged group were just motivated enough they have an equal chance to succeed is trivially false: the entire reason they're considered part of a disadvantaged group is because their chance of good outcomes is statistically lower than other groups. Demotivating factors certainly play a part in this, but the idea that their disadvantage would disappear if they just thought about things the right way is silly in the extreme (not to mention unsupported by data). You usually don't have to dig far to find an actual obstruction to the success of the group. And if we have the capability of removing this obstruction, why wouldn't we?
Generational flamewars are among the least substantive flamewars of all and they're particularly easy to avoid, so let's just all not go there.
It does feel like people can say all sorts of disparaging things about the generations that came before millennials without any consequences on HN. I understand millennials are probably the largest contingent of HN users but I would just ask that the rules be applied equally across the board.
Why is the response to the statement "millennials have problems" so commonly angry and defensive?
I can’t speak for the person you’re asking, but I think the answer to this question is that the proposed answer to “millennials have problems” is often: more regulation and government involvement. Some people feel very strongly that this is the wrong move and it will directly impact them.
Libertarians need to wrap their heads around the fact that sometimes regulations are deeply necessary.
I’m a millennial and i don’t feel like I was affected by the recession in the slightest. No millennial is locked into self employment, unemployment is at like 4.5%, the job market is doing fantastic. All this doom and gloom and “poor me” is fucking ridiculous.
https://qz.com/851066/almost-all-the-10-million-jobs-created...
Wages are stagnant, so even with a booming stock market your average worker is seeing none of it:
https://hbr.org/2017/10/why-wages-arent-growing-in-america
Just because you're doing well does not mean anyone else is doing well. You are a sample size of one.
Calling out libertarians isn't constructive when they're simply reacting in their own way to wrong-sized government. They dont respond to corrupt, shitty leadership with muddled "at least they meant well" excuses.
I will concede that, on a limited basis, government - specifically in the regulatory (and law enforcement) capacity - can do some good.
I'm more pessimistic than you though and believe that the vast majority of new laws are not written for my benefit, and most of the time we - the society as a whole - would be better off without more rules. It's not about my trusting my fellow citizen more than the ruling class, my position is about my distrust of and opposition to busybodies and cronies.
If you believe - for whatever reasons - that laws are not written nor enforced for your benefit, then maybe libertarianism isn't the worst thing. And that's all I was driving at.
Because many millennials want to have their cake and eat it too. You can't have it both ways:
- You can't choose to attend an $80,000 per year private liberal arts school and then complain you have too much student debt
- You can't move to the most expensive place in the country with no money and a low paying job and then complain it's too expensive
- You can't regularly use convenient and artificially cheap gig-economy services (like Uber and Instacart) and then complain when their business model doesn't support giving you a $150,000 a year job
- You can't demand free speech protection and then violently oppress viewpoints you disagree with (for the record, I am a political moderate)
The Millennial hypocrisy is astounding, but I'm sure every generation goes through this to some extent. The real generational moment of revelation is when you realize that every choice you make has consequences - and not just the choices/consequences you choose to believe. If I buy a cheap toy at Walmart, I know that some labor exploitation was involved. If I buy fruit at Costco, I know that burning of fossil fuels is involved. If I choose to use Google services, my data will be exploited for profit.
What everyone is asking Millennials to do is take some responsibility, acknowledge that your actions are part of the problem, and that you have some power to drive solutions. It's fine to lament about some level of inequity handed down from previous generations, we have all done it. What everyone is getting a little tired of is the classic Millennial argument that paints an entire generation as helpless victims and essentially says "You did this to us and now we want you to make the bad man go away!" Kind of like an entire generation of Robin Arryns for all you Game of Thrones fans.
1. This assumes that everyone went to a private liberal arts college, which isn't true. 2. Historically a degree wasn't as necessary because employers actually provided growth potential and entry-level positions to people. Those aren't options for millennials. That kind of forces people to get degrees to have any chance of economic growth.
> You can't move to the most expensive place in the country with no money and a low paying job and then complain it's too expensive
If those are the only regions of the country experiencing economic growth, then what else are they supposed to do? Work in Dollar General in a city of 12,000 people their whole life?
> You can't regularly use convenient and artificially cheap gig-economy services (like Uber and Instacart) and then complain when their business model doesn't support giving you a $150,000 a year job
People will always use the cheapest or most efficient option when it comes to purchasing services or items. It's not their fault that such services are legal, it's the government's.
> You can't demand free speech protection and then violently oppress viewpoints you disagree with.
I agree with you here. The internet has made it so that those who complain the most are perceived to be the majority when they're not.
And here we go... it did not take long. Why on Earth would living in a 12000 inhabitant city be infamous, be a failure, be a shame? Not fancy and shiny enough for you, eh?
And millenials are very tired of these people who have had it so easy and worked to make it so much worse for their children, talking about "personal responsibility" and "participation trophies".
It’s precisely this ease of living that is part of the problem. Why not rack up tens of thousands of college debt to get a useless degree when you’re historically more privileged than 99% of people that have ever lived?
Reality is harsh and that seems to have escaped many millennials.
I think part of the disillusionment was having grown up in the prosperous, peaceful '90s, that Boomers hyped up as the End of History. And then the western world became immersed in a seeming unending war, with the security state overreach accordingly, and then the bottom fell out of the economy after. Can you blame them for being pissed off that the promises of their childhood were a lie? At least previous generations that dealt with hardships were not lied to first.
We're back to my original point of millennials not being close enough to boomers to know that they were lying (or ill informed).
I also like how everyone blames Millennials for lack of responsibility and then complains about them doing responsible choices - be it living cheap, postponing having children, having sex later and not dating enough, going less to restaurants, being overly focused on grades ... all real complains I have seen last weeks.
There is nothing hypocritical about demanding low wage workers protections, higher taxes for richer segments population, healthcare reform and the same social services other western countries have. You may disagree with those policies, but buying cheap toys at Walmart is in no way opposition to them.
Uber being artificially cheap is not Millenials doing.
The other problem is that plenty of people (millennial or otherwise) are trying to fix the systemic problems, and others are actively moving to oppose us. It's like there's a house on fire, and I run to the neighbors and am like "help! this house is on fire!" and the neighbors respond with "stop crying and put it out yourself you hippie". It's not even my house! And the neighbors are too busy getting angry at the gall of me for asking for help putting out this house to realize that the fire's starting to spread to their house too.
It's like you running to the neighbors and saying "Help, this house in on fire! And you started it by having that bbq two weeks ago. I'm sure the natural gas you used, in addition to ravaging the environment, was somehow at fault. By the way, you really should be eating this new meatless meat that's all the rage. Oh yeah, and while you're busy putting out that fire, I'm gonna hang out with my buddies drinking kale shakes and eating avo toast. Let me know when everything is all good again and I'll slip into that newly remodeled loft."
Clearly (and supported by the comment threads here) there is a wide gap between millennial and non-millennial perception of the existing problems and the proper solutions. You should do what us Gen-Xers did, figure out how to play the game to get what you want and work on solutions to the most important issues. Pick your battles - raging about every single issue and injustice desensitizes the rest of us to the real troubles you are having.
Instead, as the guidelines say, you should flag egregious comments. For how to do that, see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html. Or you can email us and we'll take a look.
http://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/proliferating-fut...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_o...
Hypernormalisation also covers some of the same ideas and is more recent.
It's definitely worth watching for anyone interesting in the history of early Silicon Valley.
...say some folks every decade, only to watch another wave of suffering to arise because of the technological progress going far ahead of the ethical progress.
Indeed the web needs a lot of infrastructure like: identity, authentication, payment, search, etc.
I don't believe that private enterprise so solve these efficiently or fast without government intervention.
I don't pretend to have the answers... But I imagine that identity and payment could be more secure and cost efficient, if not in the hands of private enterprises.
Another example is what the Deaf had to deal with for a long time for communication (I hope that past tense is correct): the "TTY" aka "TDD", a horrid device with a built-in acoustic coupler (remember 300 baud?) using 5-bit Baudot code (no lower case, and shift characters to switch between letters and digits) with a cheesy seven-segment green LED display that could show a whole (short) line of text at a time.
I'm from Tennessee, can someone explain to me how this makes sense?
I think part of the point is that "The Californian Ideology" uses bits and pieces from other political thought, and is not as classically liberal as it might appear at first glance.
The author is talking about a form of libertarianism that emerged out of a mix of cultures. Combining an anti-statist attitude with progressive social values out of the hippie movement and the counter-culture, fused together with arch-conservative capitalism.
What i really miss, is a discussion about the "value" Californian culture creates, as these are quite different. Some are universal beneficial, and some are just plain redistribution of pre-existing wealth cycles with shock and awe.
Ueber e.g. compared to actual, value creating innovations is one huge disappointment, its basically the recreation of the taxi-industry with new owners. And this kind of worthless pseudo-innovations, who antagonize the rest of societys world-wide to Californian culture have become a rather large percentage of the created "value" over the years.
We already can see the toxic outpoor created by these well disguised redistribution hacks on societys structure, as hatred is shoveled towards societys outliers- and once we are Peak Scapegoat, the attacked party, will turn on us. All those counter-culture propagandists will do, what they always did, when the water gets hot and turn on a dime on us.
As all revolutions in history, this one will eat its children. So one should buy a bathtub and seasoning for the occasion.
At least we saw it coming, years ahead- although we couldn't prevent it.
'It was late night, when the Primepurge reached its peak.One by one in the highrise nearby, the lights had flickered out, and now the carnage could be heard in the floors below. Or was it just techno with a bad vocal? Maybe everything was good and under control again, maybe the spiral of insanity had stopped turning. Then the cellphone chimed. 'Your package has arrived' the device exclaimed happily, while the videofeed showed, several hooded figures with guns and knifes drawn from there delivery packages, slipped in through the door. For a moment, the disconnected cables, a protection symbol against the bad spirit of the Aglos shimered, then the lights went out and the lifesign trackers at the inhabitants wrist, one by one started yelling for help.'